Dawn Felagund (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
dawn_felagund) wrote2005-09-21 10:13 am
dawn_felagund) wrote2005-09-21 10:13 am
Entry tags:
The Finwë/Miriel Dilemma
Today has so far been a depressing day for me, and so I am compensating by becoming momentarily lost in a dilemma I have discovered that has absolutely no bearing on real life. Friends are losing friends (and pets--my condolensces to you, Juno) and my boss and I just had a long discussion about the state of the United States. Another hurricane is brewing in the Gulf of Mexico. I am pissed off at a group of friends right now for behaving in a heathenish, inconsiderate manner. I tried to do a flip jump on foot last night, in my parents' driveway, and got a sharp pain in the knee of my landing leg...the problems range from petty to profound, and so I am doing what any good writer does: losing myself in unreality.
Yesterday, I posted a new short story called "Lament the Morning", set on the evening of Miriel's "death" and from Finwë's point of view. It has been very interesting to read the comments I have gotten, especially those pertaining to people's perceptions of Miriel's character. I have had discussions with some of you before about Finwë's character and how he negatively impacted Fëanor with his decisions, but this is the first time that I have done a serious piece centered on Miriel, and so I was interested in people's responses to her.
What I have noticed is hardly new to me: Having been quite immersed in reading Silmarillion fiction prior to publishing my own, I have noticed, often, a certain attitude towards the character of Miriel that I find interesting. Thinking beyond that, I see that attitude also among other female Sil characters.
My own thoughts on Miriel? I like her. As I told Jenni earlier today, without Miriel, you don't have Fëanor. Without Fëanor, you have no Silmarillion.
Miriel's Choice?
Of course, I am not blind to the perceptions: Miriel caused all of the troubles that ensued with Fëanor. That if she'd just mustered herself to getting up and getting better and being a mother to her son and a wife to her husband, then everything would be okay. Miriel could have recovered, if she'd just tried a little bit harder. She let despondency take her. She deserted Finwë; she deserted Fëanor. Things could have been different.
I ask you: Could they?
Turning to my handy-dandy ever-present copy of The Silmarillion:
It seems to me that Miriel's actual spirit was depleted. Now, of course, I use The Silmarillion as a historical text to get out of things all of the time, and so it hardly seems fair to simply label these words as fact without considering the fact that they might be wrong.
But I don't think that they are wrong, for once. Many times, this issues I take with the truth of The Silmarillion comes back to the fact that none of its acknowledged authors (those being, as far as I know, Rumil and Pengolodh) would have been present for some of the events described. Many such events happened to persons not favored by the Houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin--to whom Pengolodh and Rumil were loyal, respectively--I cannot see loremasters from the House of Fëanor eagerly sharing their lords secrets, nor can I see Pengolodh being very interested in getting the true facts and making waves when accepting the "word on the street" would be a more politically popular thing to do. (And one that would allow him to keep his job!)
In this case, though, the events transpired in Valinor, and so I imagine loremasters would certainly be present with more than enough time on their hands to give an accurate recollection. Nor is there--unless you want to dismiss the canon entirely, take the route of conspiracy theory, and give the main players odd motives--a reason why Finwë, the Valar, or the loremasters would wish to lie. At this point, all of the Eldar get along; in fact, deep friendships are acknowledged as existing between the Noldor and the Vanyar and the Noldor and the Teleri. Certainly, before Fëanor's arrival, those within the Noldor seem to get along. It seems to me that Miriel's demise would have grieved and alarmed even those outside of Finwë's close confidences.
Because of the nature, too, of Miriel's demise, it seems something that would have received great attention and research. The Valar are acknowledged as having some pretty heavy involvement: "But when Miriel languished still, Finwë sought the counsel of Manwë, and Manwë delivered her to the care of Irmo in Lorien" ("Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor"). Because the Valar would understand better the nature of the fëa and how it responds to the bearing of a child, in this case, even I--decidedly not a huge fan of the Valar, as many of you know--must envision their involvement as bringing an "expert opinion" to the issue.
I imagine the investigation must have been thorough. After all, one of the deathless Elves was dying. What was happening? Could it happen again? I believe the Elves and the Valar would have been alarmed by Miriel's sudden malady.
Given all of these facts, it is hard for me to find reason to doubt what The Silmarillion says on the issue. (Although I am willing to entertain angles that I might have missed and that are spotted by my ever-astute LJ friends!) And so my conclusion is that Miriel was depleted in spirit as well as in body by the birth of Fëanor.
So, if Miriel had a damaged spirit after Fëanor's birth, did she have a choice in relinquishing her body? She, of course, tells Finwë to "...hold me blameless in this, and in all that may come after" ("Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor"). Was she blameless? Or was this simply a line she gave him to avoid having to make an effort towards recovery?
Avoiding the question of why she would want to not recover (given that her marriage to Finwë was acknowledged as being blissful), I think the real issue was could she recover? I always envision a damaged spirit, for an Elf, whose body is stronger and recovers more quickly than those bequeathed to we mere mortals, as a grave injury. Imagine someone involved in a terrible accident, their organs damaged and much blood lost, their brain injured and their neck broken. Now, imagine standing beside their hospital bed and saying, "Just get up, damn it!"
There is something essential damaged that prevents them from being able to get up, and that is how I envision a damaged Elven spirit. So, long story short, I don't believe Miriel had a choice in the matter.
"Hold me blameless...."
What interests me more, though, than considering Miriel's choice in the matter is to look at people's responses to her character, especially versus their perception of the character of Finwë.
I should begin by saying that I like both the characters of Finwë and Miriel. I'm not sure either is eligible for a Parent of the Year Award, but I like their characters. They are essentially good people--but flawed--and you all know that this is a big flag to me, begging me to write about them.
But I am going to play Devil's Advocate, just to make my point.
Lot's of people disregard the character of Miriel. People are not fond of her. Let's consider what the character of Miriel did:
-She died.
-She died because her spirit and body were badly weakened while bearing her son Fëanor.
-So Miriel died to give life to the one who would later be known as the greatest of the Noldor. She didn't die because she was lazy or inconsiderate but because she wanted her son to have life.
Now, what the character of Finwë did:
-He remarried.
-He had to seek approval first because such a thing was unknown to his people.
-He remarried because he wanted more children. No, having the greatest of the Noldor for a son wasn't enough.
-He remarried knowing that it grieved Fëanor.
-His remarriage was the chief cause of the strife in his House, later. If you don't have Fingolfin and Finarfin, then Fëanor has a hard time hating them.
Of course, Finwë's remarriage was preceded by Miriel's death, so people often argue that Miriel, not Finwë, caused the strife in the House of Finwë.
Hmm...interesting, I think. If we continue to assume that Miriel had no choice in her death, then we are blaming the involuntary death of a woman for a man's voluntary choice to remarry?
And that woman's involuntary death is the cause of all the later problems in her family (versus, again, the man's voluntary choice to remarry)?
Interesting....
I see, in fan fiction, a lot of stories that portray Miriel negatively. Yet, I have never seen a story portray Finwë negatively. (If one of you can find one, I'm interested to see it!) It cannot be Finwë's charismatic personality, as he has very little "stage time" in the book, especially compared to other characters, and his character is essentially undeveloped. It cannot be sympathy for his death because Miriel also died, and both died "in service" of Fëanor. Perhaps it comes back to people's perception that he loved Fëanor devoutly despite Fëanor's flaws, but as discussions with some of you have revealed, Finwë's unquestioning devotion to his overly proud son near the end may not have been a good thing. Furthermore, there is nothing to indicate that Miriel did not also love Fëanor. After all, she gave her life for him.
A Common Trend?
I suppose that, given the similarities of these characters and their fates--with favoritism going to Miriel, who had less a choice in hers--I find it interesting the difference in peoples' reactions to them.
Even more interesting is people's reactions to other female characters with similar circumstances.
Indis loved Finwë before Miriel's death, but her love was a secret. Presumably, she knew less of Fëanor's displeasure with Finwë's remarriage than did Finwë, yet she is often the "wicked stepmother" whereas Finwë is ever the angelic father.
Even my beloved Nerdanel, it seems, catches some criticism. The woman married Fëanor, restrained the worst of his pride in their youth, and gave him seven sons. But that is not enough. She is also a disloyal wife and mother. She deserted her husband and sons. If she had stuck around, perhaps things would have turned out differently. She should have tried harder to restrain Fëanor's pride.
Of course, one could argue that Fëanor, Fingolfin, and their sons also receive their share of criticism. The difference, I see, is the active role of the male characters versus the passive, background role of the female characters. Fëanor chose to threaten Fingolfin. Maedhros chose to swear his father's Oath. Fingolfin chose to follow his half-brother into exile. The three main female players in the Years of the Trees, as I see it--those being Miriel, Indis, and Nerdanel--on the other hand, are often charged with making some effort on behalf of the male characters, doing something unnatural or undesirable in order to stay the impetuous or stupid actions of their husbands and sons. For example, Miriel is expected to live when she is clearly dying. Indis is expected to deny the love that she feels for Finwë, on behalf of a child she likely doesn't even know. Nerdanel is expected to remain in a marriage that grieves her.
That Tolkien often places his female characters in passive versus active roles is a criticism that I have seen before. (Of course, this criticism is directed more to LotR than The Silmarillion, where strong female characters are more numerous. Nonetheless, the "Laws and Customs among the Eldar," which dictates that women must sacrifice their bodies and spirits to create children whereas the males do not--to such a drastic extent, anyway--has been criticized on grounds of sexism. This work is quite prevalently used and referenced by Silmarillion writers.) I find it interesting that people's perceptions in fan fiction based on these works--people who will often openly criticize Tolkien for misogynism in his world--are keeping with this: That the female characters are amiss for pursuing love or happiness in their own right. They are "heroic" if they choose instead to make a sacrifice that will (possibly) remedy a blunder made by an impetuous or thoughtless male character, a blunder that would better be resolved by not being committed in the first place. They need not even know, at the time, that their choice to do otherwise will result in grave consequences. (I have trouble envisioning, for example, Nerdanel choosing to leave Fëanor, even were she aware of her sons' fates. Nor can I imagine Indis dooming an entire people for the sake of a romance. Fëanor and Finwë, though, I cannot hold so naively blameless.) Male characters, such as Finwë, who seek love and happiness--even against the traditions of his culture or the wishes of his only son--are not likewise scathed. People will defend the actions of Fëanor and decry Nerdanel in the same breath, blaming her or Indis or Miriel for his downfall when really, Fëanor's downfall is Fëanor's downfall.
Of course, these are only my impressions and observations. They are in no way fact. I have conducted no studies nor done any concrete research on this subject, only to report what I have seen as a common trend in some fan fiction. Furthermore, my education was in social science and I am quite familiar with research methodology and problems encountered in such studies. I acknowledge that I--as everyone--am guilty of confirmation biases. My observations might be nothing more.
I am heartily interested in my fellow Tolkienites thoughts on this. Do you think that female Silmarillion characters are portrayed differently or held to different standards than male characters in fan fiction? If so, why do you think this is? If you totally disagree with me, likewise, I welcome your thoughts and opinions. Like I said, these thoughts are very abstract (although I must admit to a temptation to do further research) and based only on my impressions, after reading an unhealthy amount of fan fiction :)
Lastly, thanks go to my fellow Fëanatics, for the wonderful discussions we have and the thoughts they provoke.
Yesterday, I posted a new short story called "Lament the Morning", set on the evening of Miriel's "death" and from Finwë's point of view. It has been very interesting to read the comments I have gotten, especially those pertaining to people's perceptions of Miriel's character. I have had discussions with some of you before about Finwë's character and how he negatively impacted Fëanor with his decisions, but this is the first time that I have done a serious piece centered on Miriel, and so I was interested in people's responses to her.
What I have noticed is hardly new to me: Having been quite immersed in reading Silmarillion fiction prior to publishing my own, I have noticed, often, a certain attitude towards the character of Miriel that I find interesting. Thinking beyond that, I see that attitude also among other female Sil characters.
My own thoughts on Miriel? I like her. As I told Jenni earlier today, without Miriel, you don't have Fëanor. Without Fëanor, you have no Silmarillion.
Miriel's Choice?
Of course, I am not blind to the perceptions: Miriel caused all of the troubles that ensued with Fëanor. That if she'd just mustered herself to getting up and getting better and being a mother to her son and a wife to her husband, then everything would be okay. Miriel could have recovered, if she'd just tried a little bit harder. She let despondency take her. She deserted Finwë; she deserted Fëanor. Things could have been different.
I ask you: Could they?
Turning to my handy-dandy ever-present copy of The Silmarillion:
But in the bearing of her son Miriel was consumed in spirit and body; and after his birth she yearned for release from the labour of living. And when she had named him, she said to Finwë, "Never again shall I bear child; for strength that would have nourished the life of many has gone forth into Fëanor.
-"Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor"
It seems to me that Miriel's actual spirit was depleted. Now, of course, I use The Silmarillion as a historical text to get out of things all of the time, and so it hardly seems fair to simply label these words as fact without considering the fact that they might be wrong.
But I don't think that they are wrong, for once. Many times, this issues I take with the truth of The Silmarillion comes back to the fact that none of its acknowledged authors (those being, as far as I know, Rumil and Pengolodh) would have been present for some of the events described. Many such events happened to persons not favored by the Houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin--to whom Pengolodh and Rumil were loyal, respectively--I cannot see loremasters from the House of Fëanor eagerly sharing their lords secrets, nor can I see Pengolodh being very interested in getting the true facts and making waves when accepting the "word on the street" would be a more politically popular thing to do. (And one that would allow him to keep his job!)
In this case, though, the events transpired in Valinor, and so I imagine loremasters would certainly be present with more than enough time on their hands to give an accurate recollection. Nor is there--unless you want to dismiss the canon entirely, take the route of conspiracy theory, and give the main players odd motives--a reason why Finwë, the Valar, or the loremasters would wish to lie. At this point, all of the Eldar get along; in fact, deep friendships are acknowledged as existing between the Noldor and the Vanyar and the Noldor and the Teleri. Certainly, before Fëanor's arrival, those within the Noldor seem to get along. It seems to me that Miriel's demise would have grieved and alarmed even those outside of Finwë's close confidences.
Because of the nature, too, of Miriel's demise, it seems something that would have received great attention and research. The Valar are acknowledged as having some pretty heavy involvement: "But when Miriel languished still, Finwë sought the counsel of Manwë, and Manwë delivered her to the care of Irmo in Lorien" ("Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor"). Because the Valar would understand better the nature of the fëa and how it responds to the bearing of a child, in this case, even I--decidedly not a huge fan of the Valar, as many of you know--must envision their involvement as bringing an "expert opinion" to the issue.
I imagine the investigation must have been thorough. After all, one of the deathless Elves was dying. What was happening? Could it happen again? I believe the Elves and the Valar would have been alarmed by Miriel's sudden malady.
Given all of these facts, it is hard for me to find reason to doubt what The Silmarillion says on the issue. (Although I am willing to entertain angles that I might have missed and that are spotted by my ever-astute LJ friends!) And so my conclusion is that Miriel was depleted in spirit as well as in body by the birth of Fëanor.
So, if Miriel had a damaged spirit after Fëanor's birth, did she have a choice in relinquishing her body? She, of course, tells Finwë to "...hold me blameless in this, and in all that may come after" ("Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor"). Was she blameless? Or was this simply a line she gave him to avoid having to make an effort towards recovery?
Avoiding the question of why she would want to not recover (given that her marriage to Finwë was acknowledged as being blissful), I think the real issue was could she recover? I always envision a damaged spirit, for an Elf, whose body is stronger and recovers more quickly than those bequeathed to we mere mortals, as a grave injury. Imagine someone involved in a terrible accident, their organs damaged and much blood lost, their brain injured and their neck broken. Now, imagine standing beside their hospital bed and saying, "Just get up, damn it!"
There is something essential damaged that prevents them from being able to get up, and that is how I envision a damaged Elven spirit. So, long story short, I don't believe Miriel had a choice in the matter.
"Hold me blameless...."
What interests me more, though, than considering Miriel's choice in the matter is to look at people's responses to her character, especially versus their perception of the character of Finwë.
I should begin by saying that I like both the characters of Finwë and Miriel. I'm not sure either is eligible for a Parent of the Year Award, but I like their characters. They are essentially good people--but flawed--and you all know that this is a big flag to me, begging me to write about them.
But I am going to play Devil's Advocate, just to make my point.
Lot's of people disregard the character of Miriel. People are not fond of her. Let's consider what the character of Miriel did:
-She died.
-She died because her spirit and body were badly weakened while bearing her son Fëanor.
-So Miriel died to give life to the one who would later be known as the greatest of the Noldor. She didn't die because she was lazy or inconsiderate but because she wanted her son to have life.
Now, what the character of Finwë did:
-He remarried.
-He had to seek approval first because such a thing was unknown to his people.
-He remarried because he wanted more children. No, having the greatest of the Noldor for a son wasn't enough.
-He remarried knowing that it grieved Fëanor.
-His remarriage was the chief cause of the strife in his House, later. If you don't have Fingolfin and Finarfin, then Fëanor has a hard time hating them.
Of course, Finwë's remarriage was preceded by Miriel's death, so people often argue that Miriel, not Finwë, caused the strife in the House of Finwë.
Hmm...interesting, I think. If we continue to assume that Miriel had no choice in her death, then we are blaming the involuntary death of a woman for a man's voluntary choice to remarry?
And that woman's involuntary death is the cause of all the later problems in her family (versus, again, the man's voluntary choice to remarry)?
Interesting....
I see, in fan fiction, a lot of stories that portray Miriel negatively. Yet, I have never seen a story portray Finwë negatively. (If one of you can find one, I'm interested to see it!) It cannot be Finwë's charismatic personality, as he has very little "stage time" in the book, especially compared to other characters, and his character is essentially undeveloped. It cannot be sympathy for his death because Miriel also died, and both died "in service" of Fëanor. Perhaps it comes back to people's perception that he loved Fëanor devoutly despite Fëanor's flaws, but as discussions with some of you have revealed, Finwë's unquestioning devotion to his overly proud son near the end may not have been a good thing. Furthermore, there is nothing to indicate that Miriel did not also love Fëanor. After all, she gave her life for him.
A Common Trend?
I suppose that, given the similarities of these characters and their fates--with favoritism going to Miriel, who had less a choice in hers--I find it interesting the difference in peoples' reactions to them.
Even more interesting is people's reactions to other female characters with similar circumstances.
Indis loved Finwë before Miriel's death, but her love was a secret. Presumably, she knew less of Fëanor's displeasure with Finwë's remarriage than did Finwë, yet she is often the "wicked stepmother" whereas Finwë is ever the angelic father.
Even my beloved Nerdanel, it seems, catches some criticism. The woman married Fëanor, restrained the worst of his pride in their youth, and gave him seven sons. But that is not enough. She is also a disloyal wife and mother. She deserted her husband and sons. If she had stuck around, perhaps things would have turned out differently. She should have tried harder to restrain Fëanor's pride.
Of course, one could argue that Fëanor, Fingolfin, and their sons also receive their share of criticism. The difference, I see, is the active role of the male characters versus the passive, background role of the female characters. Fëanor chose to threaten Fingolfin. Maedhros chose to swear his father's Oath. Fingolfin chose to follow his half-brother into exile. The three main female players in the Years of the Trees, as I see it--those being Miriel, Indis, and Nerdanel--on the other hand, are often charged with making some effort on behalf of the male characters, doing something unnatural or undesirable in order to stay the impetuous or stupid actions of their husbands and sons. For example, Miriel is expected to live when she is clearly dying. Indis is expected to deny the love that she feels for Finwë, on behalf of a child she likely doesn't even know. Nerdanel is expected to remain in a marriage that grieves her.
That Tolkien often places his female characters in passive versus active roles is a criticism that I have seen before. (Of course, this criticism is directed more to LotR than The Silmarillion, where strong female characters are more numerous. Nonetheless, the "Laws and Customs among the Eldar," which dictates that women must sacrifice their bodies and spirits to create children whereas the males do not--to such a drastic extent, anyway--has been criticized on grounds of sexism. This work is quite prevalently used and referenced by Silmarillion writers.) I find it interesting that people's perceptions in fan fiction based on these works--people who will often openly criticize Tolkien for misogynism in his world--are keeping with this: That the female characters are amiss for pursuing love or happiness in their own right. They are "heroic" if they choose instead to make a sacrifice that will (possibly) remedy a blunder made by an impetuous or thoughtless male character, a blunder that would better be resolved by not being committed in the first place. They need not even know, at the time, that their choice to do otherwise will result in grave consequences. (I have trouble envisioning, for example, Nerdanel choosing to leave Fëanor, even were she aware of her sons' fates. Nor can I imagine Indis dooming an entire people for the sake of a romance. Fëanor and Finwë, though, I cannot hold so naively blameless.) Male characters, such as Finwë, who seek love and happiness--even against the traditions of his culture or the wishes of his only son--are not likewise scathed. People will defend the actions of Fëanor and decry Nerdanel in the same breath, blaming her or Indis or Miriel for his downfall when really, Fëanor's downfall is Fëanor's downfall.
Of course, these are only my impressions and observations. They are in no way fact. I have conducted no studies nor done any concrete research on this subject, only to report what I have seen as a common trend in some fan fiction. Furthermore, my education was in social science and I am quite familiar with research methodology and problems encountered in such studies. I acknowledge that I--as everyone--am guilty of confirmation biases. My observations might be nothing more.
I am heartily interested in my fellow Tolkienites thoughts on this. Do you think that female Silmarillion characters are portrayed differently or held to different standards than male characters in fan fiction? If so, why do you think this is? If you totally disagree with me, likewise, I welcome your thoughts and opinions. Like I said, these thoughts are very abstract (although I must admit to a temptation to do further research) and based only on my impressions, after reading an unhealthy amount of fan fiction :)
Lastly, thanks go to my fellow Fëanatics, for the wonderful discussions we have and the thoughts they provoke.
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Since the Eldar in Valinor didn't get sick, there would have been no way to care for one who did get sick. Miriel came down with two severe psychiatric illnesses, both of which can be fatal if untreated. And there was no treatment available. There is no way to blame her, for there isn't really any blame to be placed. It's like blaming someone for dying of infection before sulfa drugs were invented.
As for Nerdanel, there are some marriages that need to end. Hers was one of them. I don't know that I see her as having done something wrong in ditching Fëanor, but I always wonder about why she chose to leave the kids behind. Most women, when they leave their husbands, seem to want to retain custody of the kids. There were probably some interesting things going on in Nerdanel's mind when she did that.
Finwë -- as you probably know, I don't consider him either evil or good for what he did. He's just a guy struggling with a situation that no one had ever encountered before. The natural state of the Eldar is marriage, not widowhood. Finwë was a gentleman in need of a wife, Fëanor seemed in need of a mother, and lo and behold! there's Indis, who seems to have been willing to be both. I think Finwë's mistake was in trying to please too many people in his life. And I think it was a mistake. An honest-to-God oops that had unfortunate consequences.
Fëanor is something of a spoiled brat, and Finwë probably gave him way too much free rein as a young 'un. I remember reading where, despite the fact that Finwë remarried specifically in order to have more children, he then favored Fëanor over the younger ones, which was another bad choice. But, like the other bad choices made throughout the early Sil, it's not evil; that is, it's not made with malice aforethought.
The Silmarillion: When Good Elves Make Stupid Choices.
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Interesting.... Since my chosen study was clinical psychology, I am a bit embarrassed to confess that this angle never occured to me before, but wholly agree that she does seem to fit the profile of postpartum depression. I have generally avoided the temptation attaching diagnoses to Elves, though, because of the biochemical components and the fact that I can't say that Elves have the same brain biochemistry as a mortal, since so much else about their biology seems to be so different.
I have always seen Miriel's malady as deriving from a damaged fëa, which of course, cannot be put into any terms equivalent to a mortal, since we are not fëa-based beings, as are Elves. Of course, with a damaged fëa, she had perhaps less a choice than even a mental condition, which does have hope for improvement over time.
I always wonder about why she chose to leave the kids behind.
I've always seen it as less a choice to leave the kids than the kids' choice not to go with her. I think it is likely that some--or possibly all--were adults at the time, and made the choice to follow Fëanor. As far as I know, there is no definitive answer to say how old they were when she left; I've always envisioned them as adults.
It is funny, though, that in the Silmarillion, custody often seems to favor the father. Curufin took Celebrimbor to Middle-earth while his wife remained behind; Fingon sent Gil-Galad to Cirdan to be fostered . (Of course, Gil-Galad's mother could have been deceased, but nothing is said on this, so I think it just as likely that she was alive and Fingon sent their son from his family. Period.)
Finwë -- as you probably know, I don't consider him either evil or good for what he did.
Me neither :) I just like to play Devil's advocate because so many people are quick to blame Indis and Miriel but are aghast at doing the same for Finwë. I believe that all of the bad things in Fëanor's life--Miriel's death, Finwë's remarriage--contributed to some of his problems in the end, but certainly, I don't think that anyone knew how badly things would turn out. Especially Finwë.
About Finwë trying to please too many people, that is an interesting idea, an angle I had never really considered before.
You can probably figure that I don't think any of the Elves evil. They just make bad choices, as you so aptly pointed out.
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{{{{huggles back}}}}
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The Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth would have this only partially true or not at all; both Elves and Men are mirroanwi, symbiotic systems of fea and hroa. Where the strength and emphasis lie is perhaps different between the two races, but the basics of the system are the same.
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::blushes and adds to reading list::
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(Me, I've had to read it, even though I've yet to hold a copy of HoME 10; I play Andreth in
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I'm going to try to pick it up again soon. A year later ;)
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Finrod's in there, too...
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The fact that Finrod is in it (and Dawn Felagund obviously has an interest in Finrod Felagund ;D) was the reason I started it to begin with! Yay for the 'rod! ;)
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Imagine someone involved in a terrible accident, their organs damaged and much blood lost, their brain injured and their neck broken. Now, imagine standing beside their hospital bed and saying, "Just get up, damn it!"
It seems to me that the situation was more like "I can help you recover." and the injured says "No, that's okay, I'd rather it be this way." It doesn't seem like she tried to recover at all.
I don't see it as a one-or-the-other scenario. She gave him life, but I'm not sure I agree that she gave her life for him.
And why would she say "Hold me blameless"?? That seems a bit like saying "I didn't do it!" when someone calls on you before you know what it is they want. Why not "I'm sorry", "Forgive me"...
Perhaps Finwe was wrong to remarry, but had he not, things may have just turned out worse. His remarriage did not impact the release of Morgoth and I say that the silmarils would still have been created and eventually stolen. Finwe would have been murdered, Feanor would swear on revenge, yet how many would follow him? Perhaps more, perhaps less. And who would bring help out of Valinor? Earendil would never have been born, and the Valar would have perhaps sat around in Aman waiting for the peoples of Arda to beg at their feet for help. But we also know that no one could get to Aman, thanks to the Valar's enchantments. So, the peoples of Arda would most likely have eventually been overcome by Morgoth, while the Valar waited, and eventually would say "But you never asked us for help!" /tangent>
I don't really blame Indis or Nerdanel.
Male characters, such as Finwë, who seek love and happiness--even against the traditions of his culture or the wishes of his only son--are not likewise scathed.
If Indis is not expected to abandon love for Finwe just on account of one person - Feanor - should Finwe really be expected to do just that? If you faced the rest of your eternal life alone, wouldn't you want to have some comfort? Yes, he had Feanor, but for how long? Come 50 years, that kid's gonna be gone like gov't cash, married and living in his own house, with his own family. Then Finwe would be alone in his palace, filling out papers and being generally depressed, I would imagine.
And...I just had a dinner break so I totally lost my train of thought...Oops!
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See, I've never gotten the impression that a choice was involved. It seems to me that irreparable damage had been done...she had given too much to Feanor.
Just a different interpretation, I guess ;)
Perhaps Finwe was wrong to remarry, but had he not, things may have just turned out worse. His remarriage did not impact the release of Morgoth and I say that the silmarils would still have been created and eventually stolen.
I don't blame Finwe at all. I don't *blame* anyone but the guilty person, and even then (as you know, from reading AMC ;D), the "blame" is confounded by a lot of factors. (Actually, I don't like "blame" at all because it all comes back to Arda Marred and the actions of Morgoth. Some of us blame the Valar, some Feanor, some Miriel or Fingolfin or Indis or Nerdanel, but it all comes back to Morgoth, really.)
To play Devil's advocate (which I occasionally like to do, as you can see!), if Finwe had not remarried, stealing the Sils would have been difficult as Feanor would not have had a half-brother to threaten and get him banished to Formenos, and so Morgoth would have had to steal the Sils and murder Finwe in the middle of a crowded city. (Or just outside of one, according to Felak!canon ;D)
I was just thinking "Hindsight is 20/20." Then my hubby's hockey video game said it...weird! But anyway, I think it rather pointless to point to the actions of a character that were done without evil intention--like Finwe and Indis' marriage or Miriel's"death" or Finwe's insistence on accompanying Feany to Formenos--and say it caused a certain event. It may have facilitated it, but it all comes back to the fact that Morgoth was going to stir up sh*t, not matter how he had to do it.
If Indis is not expected to abandon love for Finwe just on account of one person - Feanor - should Finwe really be expected to do just that?
Of course not! That was me playing Devil's advocate, pointing out that Indis is often villainized (in fan fiction) for falling in love with Finwe, but I've never seen the opposite tactic tried.
And...I just had a dinner break so I totally lost my train of thought...Oops!
LOL! Maybe it will come back; maybe it's gone the way of the Silmarils. (Okay, no more dumb Sil-metaphors, promise ;D) Regardless, thanks for the good discussion :)
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Just a different interpretation, I guess ;)
See, I always thought "Well, it's Valinor, right? Shouldn't all hurts be healed?" Anyway...
But isn't interpretation great?? :)
To play Devil's advocate (which I occasionally like to do, as you can see!), if Finwe had not remarried, stealing the Sils would have been difficult as Feanor would not have had a half-brother to threaten and get him banished to Formenos, and so Morgoth would have had to steal the Sils and murder Finwe in the middle of a crowded city. (Or just outside of one, according to Felak!canon ;D)
To continue with my half of being D.A., if Feanor's half siblings didn't exist, he'd have no reason to fear them, so he would be off his guard, perhaps making it just as easy for Morgoth to steal the silmarils. And, as you said, Morgoth was gonna find a way...
Of course not! That was me playing Devil's advocate, pointing out that Indis is often villainized (in fan fiction) for falling in love with Finwe, but I've never seen the opposite tactic tried.
No! Back you little fanged beast! You shall not taste [wo]man flesh!
But isn't playing Devil's Advocate just so much fun?
Maybe it will come back; maybe it's gone the way of the Silmarils. (Okay, no more dumb Sil-metaphors, promise ;D) Regardless, thanks for the good discussion :)
Yeah sure. We nerds can never resist bad Sil puns/metaphors/anything! ;)
This discussion is much more interesting that my 260 question technology review. So thank you.
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I think this is true...in Arda Unmarred.
But I'd imagine a world that could permit the presence of a being like Ungoliant and the damage that she and Melkor caused could also have incurable hurts. (Because the damage to the Trees was, in a way, an incurable hurt.) I read somewhere once, I think, that the damage done to Miriel by Feanor's birth was believed to be a result of Arda Marred. It wouldn't have happened in the world as the Valar originally made it.
And I don't think that the Elves' spirits were really the jurisdiction of the Valar, at least in the total sense. (Canatics, please feel free to jump in if I am making an ass of myself!) They were made by Eru, and so I believe they would have also been able to be fully healed only by Eru. I don't know if this is entirely supported by canon, but it is my intuition.
To continue with my half of being D.A., if Feanor's half siblings didn't exist, he'd have no reason to fear them, so he would be off his guard, perhaps making it just as easy for Morgoth to steal the silmarils.
To continue with *my* half ;) this assumes that Feanor's pride was derived wholly from the existence of his half-brothers. I think his pride--and hence, his paranoia--was inevitable, and the Valar were still around to make him wary.
(Because I have always thought he was more afraid of the Valar than Fin & Fin, but that's just me....)
And, as you said, Morgoth was gonna find a way...
Rats. Using my own argument against me? Clever, clever ;D
Also: True, true!
But isn't playing Devil's Advocate just so much fun?
Absolutely! :)
This discussion is much more interesting that my 260 question technology review.
Hmph. I *so* miss college sometimes.
For me, though, it was 260 neuroanatomy questions or 260 bloody stories to read for writers' workshop.... ;-P
I wanted to ask you, just out of curiosity, speaking of college: Does your Equine Science major require a lot of field work or is it mostly classroom? Because field work seems like it'd be fun!
:o) <--nosy 'gund!
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I always differentiated that as an evil act. Giving birth doesn't have any ill-will or hatred behind it.
To continue with *my* half ;) this assumes that Feanor's pride was derived wholly from the existence of his half-brothers. I think his pride--and hence, his paranoia--was inevitable, and the Valar were still around to make him wary.
(Because I have always thought he was more afraid of the Valar than Fin & Fin, but that's just me....)
Of course he'd have his pride. He'd still be the greatest of the Noldor - that wouldn't change. And whether he feared the Valar more than F&F is rather irrelevent. What I'm thinking is that, without F&F, Feanor wouldn't be distracted by the possibility of them usurping his position as favorite.
Maybe we should just chalk it up to "life's a bitch", hmm?? ;)
Rats. Using my own argument against me? Clever, clever ;D
:) 'S my job!
Does your Equine Science major require a lot of field work or is it mostly classroom?
Right now, it doesn't, but that's just because I'm taking crap classes required for my major, but are things like economics. Later I think there will be a lot of lab time. I know there's one class which I really hope to take, Preparation of Horses for English Competition, that I think is mainly all field work. You get assigned are horse to get ready for shows, work with it the whole year, then sell it. But yes, the field work does sound like so much fun!! My plan for the spring is to volunteer at the mare/foal barn and play with the babies!!! :)
MIRIEL
Post-partum depression exists, yes, and it is a horrible medical problem. In the news here a few years ago was the story of a young female doctor and she was the mother of a newborn. She held her baby in her arms and she jumped in front of a subway train, thus killing them both. People vilified her good name for that. You wouldn't have believed the public response to what she did. Now what happened was due to the illness and her state of mind at that time, and in a way, I suppose that was how Miriel felt too.
For that, I am sorry for what I said about her, and I am sorry for Miriel.
However....postnatal depression is a condition that will pass. For people like the Valar, who are supposed to know everything, they don't seem to know much, or do much, do they? (Jeez, was that Feanor right about them!) I think their decision to let Miriel die was the wrong one, personally.
Have you read "Whose Life Is It Anyway?" about the paralyzed man who wanted to die? I would have chosen to live, as Christopher Reeve did, in the hope that a cure for paralysis would be found.
"In life there is hope". And those are my thoughts on this subject. (Some of them.)
Re: MIRIEL
Explanations aren't necessary; don't worry about it :) I just see trends and become fascinated by them. Unfortunately for my friends, they end up my experimental subjects >;-D
"Stupid!Jenni!".
Oh no! Please don't say that! I didn't intend for this post to make anyone feel stupid or wrong but just to note a trend that I have seen from reading way too much fan fiction. Some of the responses to "Lament," yes, underscored that trend, but really, no one's beliefs are wrong. This is just my opinion. (And unsupported by concrete research, might I add! ;D)
The thing I love about LJ and this group of friends that I have found is that something as innocuous as peoples' reaction to a character can spawn a whole new line of thinking that never occured to me before. I am so grateful for all of you because each comment makes me think, and I have learned so much about writing and Elves and life from our discussions! :)
However....postnatal depression is a condition that will pass.
That's assuming, though, that Miriel was suffering from postnatal depression. I, personally, do not think that she was. I am hesitant to attach psychiatric diagnoses to Elves because much of such illnesses are biochemical (or even genetic) in nature, and I don't think that we know enough about Elven biology to say that they would be prone to pathological drops in serotonin levels, for example, when they manage to avoid other illnesses pertaining to imbalances in the body. A lot of this comes from, I suppose, my background in psychology and my tendency to think of psychiatric conditions as much the same as medical conditions rather than some special category of malady, as many people do. If Elves can't get cancer or experience degenerative diseases or even succumb to infection, it is hard for me to believe that their brain chemicals would also be subject to imbalance.
As I mentioned in the post, I believe her problem to be a failing of her fea, which is not something that we mere mortals can understand ;) The Sil says that her spirit was damaged in Feanor's birth, and I have always believed *that* to be the reason why she died and would not return to life. I hold it akin to a grave medical condition--a severe heart attack, for example--in a human: It is possible to overcome it, but it is also a gamble, and there will always be damage, and the choice to live or die is not always the victim's.
Have you read "Whose Life Is It Anyway?"
No, is it a book? I really, really want to see The Sea Inside, which is much the same, and it is on my movie-watching list, but we have been too busy lately to rent many DVDs. But I hear that movie is excellent.
I would have chosen to live, as Christopher Reeve did, in the hope that a cure for paralysis would be found.
Christopher Reeve is a hero. I was so distraught to hear that he had died :(
I agree with you, by the way. As long as I have my husband, my friends, and my writing, I will be happy :)
MIRIEL
Re: MIRIEL
My very bare understanding of it (because I've yet to read the "Anthrabeth" in 10) comes from "Laws and Customs among the Eldar" and has the Elves consisting of hroa (body) and fëa (spirit). Their hroar are given to them by their parents, in the same manner as human babies are made. Tolkien originally tossed around the idea that the fëar, likewise, came from a blend of the parents' fëar but rejected that idea and, instead, has each fëa specially made by Eru and given to the child.
Elves moreso than mortals are governed by their fëar, rather than their hroar. So, while this doesn't constrain free will, it means that they are not leashed by carnal or entirely bodily desires. This is why Elves are not unfaithful in marriage and why few deeds of lust are recorded among them. Their fëar are also bound to Arda and that is why they are destined or doomed--however you choose to look at it--to live as long as the life of the earth on the earth.
Basically, Elves are more spiritual beings, which is why I placed such an emphasis on the fact that Miriel was weakened in body and spirit and why I don't think that she had a choice in the matter. Not because she lacked free will but--like a human mother who dies of a disease and leaves her child an orphan--she lacked the ability to heal.
(To any canatics out there: I am working without my books, so if I have made any errors in the above explanation, please don't be shy to correct me!)
Yeah, I keep forgetting that these Elves are not like us!
That is a hard balance to achieve, I think, in writing about them. In order to garner empathy for a character, s/he must be believable and "human," but Elves are not exactly like we humans. Hence the fact that I think a lot of people dislike/blame Miriel's character because her dilemma is not a human one, and so it is hard to understand and empathize with her.
ELVES
Re: ELVES
Juno did an excellent analysis of canon in LaCE that I *highly* recommend. If you read the essay closely (as Juno points out), you can get around a lot of the canon issues.
Of course, this also requires asking: What is canon? I, for one, discount anything outside of LotR, the Hobbit, and the Sil. Others take HoMe more seriously, like
And, as Juno points out, you can get around a lot of it ;)
I find that readers are generally more forgiving of sexual AU than they are other types. Look at the prevalence of slash! ;) And I have been berated for many of my little AU twists in AMC, but only one person has commented on the possible AU nature of Maitimo's promiscuity, and that was Juno.
Personally, I feel that--if warned--no one has the right to complain about AU. So I would mark the stories, just to be safe, and maybe include a note that it pertains only to issues related to LaCE so that canatics have no excuse to skewer you! ;)
I would imagine that Tolkien would probably see Celeborn/Finrod as unfaithful, but since Tolkien never addresses homosexuality, it is hard to say.
CANON, ELVISH STYLE
Re: CANON, ELVISH STYLE
I also read all of yours, even if I don't comment because someone does something
stupidgood, like get himself arrested by one of our officers! ;)I am brewing an idea for your challenge, pertaining to Earwen's role in restoring the peace between the Noldor and the Teleri following the Kinslaying. I think that she must have been a great ally and supporter of Finarfin in this time, and I want to explore that a bit.
I am very excited about it and working out the details in my head before I start it.
I never tell people story ideas before they're on paper, so now I'm all nervous and going to click "Post Comment" before I have any regrets! ;D
Re: CANON, ELVISH STYLE
Re: CANON, ELVISH STYLE
It is a tough challenge, both from the perspective of canon (and having to do research on some of the characters, as you pointed out!) and writing technique because there is a specific goal in mind; it is not just enough to slap together a drabble and call it a day. It requires thought and a good deal of effort.
Also, we have only 22 members (one of whom just joined!), so if only 2 people participate, that's close to 10%...pretty good, I think!
If 10% of HASA participated in a challenge, you'd get like 60-some entries! (I think HASA has ~600 members?)
I was going to send invites to everyone I could find who writes Silmarillion, but then I decided to lay low. Because I'd rather have a small group with mostly active members than a group numbering in the hundreds where the silence is deafening. Like Silmfics (no offense to Silmfics meant, of course, but the most action on that list came after I announced SWG and everyone was trying to prove that the list isn't dead!) And, for only numbering 22 people, we have shared an enormous amount of writing in the last two months!
::resisting urge to go on and on about SWG....::
Hey, I can't help it! It's kind of like how people show pictures of their grandkids ;)
I figured that word will get out. I am talking to new people all of the time, and once AMC goes into the public domain, I figure more people will join.
Okay, I'm *really* going to stop talking about AMC now! :D
(How do you put up with me??)
Re: CANON, ELVISH STYLE
Too many abbreviations
/retardedness
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Oh, and I don't consider HoME to be canon, or the Silm, only 'The Hobbit' and LoTR! The reason I use so much HoME stuff is because Christopher Tolkien left so many good bits out of the Silm, for instance, Maedhros's 'blood and darkness' speech. I also like to use JRRT's final decision on a subject - such as Gil-galad as Orodreth's son.
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I agree with you about the women in Feany's life: influence, not blame :) But that came from a lot of different sources. Poor guy just had one mucked up existence!
Glad to see you're back, by the way! :D
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