To Review or Not to Review? That Is the Question....

[dawn_felagund]

Recently, I have been batting around the idea of submitting one of my short stories for archive review at HASA. So why is this a big deal? Just do it, right, Dawn?

The problem is that I have always made such a big loud noise about how I don't agree with processes that claim to judge what is "quality" fiction, something that is made even worse online, where even "blind" submissions are often easily recognized as belonging to a certain author and therefore prone (in my opinion) to greater bias than a review by true strangers.


For example, many of you have stories that I would know as yours the moment I read them or read the titles, even, in certain circumstances. I admit that I would find it hard to separate my feelings for you as a friend or an individual from my judgement of a story. And the opposite is unfortunately also true: I am sure that there are people in the Tolkien fanfic community who would decline one of my stories just because it was written by me. (None of these people, as far as I know, belong to HASA. If they do, they are not active over there.) And it's not hard to know what stories belong to me. Go to my "short story" tag and there's a list right there.

Besides that, I simply don't agree that even a huge pool of reviewers have a right to decide what is or is not quality. Now I've had it brought up to me before: But Dawn, you are an editor for a literary magazine. And you have been a fiction editor before and had the difficulty of actually choosing the "best" stories from a pool of submissions. Yes, but I see this as different. A literary magazine, to me, is nothing but a collection of pieces that the editor(s) find particularly good. It is the editor's opinions, certainly not a declaration of quality at large. Were you to read the same pool of stories as me, you would probably "rate" some differently than I do. And a literary magazine, also, includes a certain kind of fiction. A story from the genre of science fiction might be excellent to readers of science fiction, but I don't think that it would ever appear in The Praire Schooner. Not because it's bad but because they don't publish that kind of fiction.

But archives that require a "review" to get in on the premise of only wanting to accept fiction of "quality" are, in my opinion, assuming that a team of reviewers can make such a judgement. Even the most atrocious blue-haired, purple-irised, unicorn-riding "Mary Sue" would be good fiction to someone. On the other hand, a dense, psychologically-based story dealing with the Elven view of mortality might breeze into most archives...but there would be readers who would hate it. There are doubtlessly readers who hate my stories, who think that I'm long-winded, blathering, and--at times--pompous (they're certainly right on the first two counts...I'm not so sure that I can count as pompous, though), and I know there are people who love my stories. Who's right? Who's to same I write quality fiction...or not?

And so I've always assumed that I would avoid archives that "review" stories for inclusion. But recently, I want to give it a try, for a couple of reasons.

1. I just want to see if it would be accepted. I'm curious. Curiosity may have killed the cat, but satisfaction brought him back.


2. I can't help but feel that I am pompous or prideful to assume that I am making some kind of impact by witholding my work from certain archives. Like the staff of these archives are wringing their hands even as I type this and considering revising their admission guidelines solely because Dawn Felagund doesn't agree with them, and they are somehow incomplete if they don't get stories by Dawn Felagund posted there. Hmph.


3. I want an audience for my work. And HASA is one of the most-read Tolkien archives, so to have my work there would be a good thing. (And eventually other "review" archives as well.)


4. Am I really compromising my principles to submit my work? I do not do reviews, not because I'm lazy or I do not wish to help other authors get into archives but because a) I do not trust myself to be fair in reviewing the work of a friend or someone well known to me and b) I do not believe that I have any right to determine what is quality fiction. But to submit one's work...is that really in violation of my belief that the system is wrong? I also do not agree with using standardized tests for admission into universities, but I have taken both the SAT and GRE, scored well on both, and am proud of my work. It doesn't mean that I am agreeing that standardized tests are appropriate admissions standards. It is simply something that I had to do to achieve a greater goal: getting into the university I wanted to attend. A necessary evil, to borrow the cliche.

So that's where I stand. I'm interested in people's opinions on this.


But if you'd rather give me your opinion anonymously (and just because they're fun and I'm paying for the ability to use them), here's a poll:

[Poll #669291]

Now that it's 3 o'clock and I've done my blathering for the day, I will stop procrastinating and do some writing.

Comments

[digdigil.livejournal.com]

Of course you should do it, Dawn! You never know who is going to read it for review, and it could be people who will love it and accept it. No matter what happens, all the reviewers' advice will be helpful and extremely interesting to know.

[dawn_felagund]

Thanks. :) I am less worried about being declined than about feeling hypocritical. After all the hollering I've done about how I don't agree with review processes, to push one of my stories into one, just to get an audience...I wonder if I'm being hypocritical.

I'm interested to know the sorts of comments I will receive from reviewers too, truth be known. ;)

[juno-magic.livejournal.com]

First of all Dawn should read an excellent essay about "How to Review" that a certain JunoMagic just posted and SSPed just about everywhere.

Contents:
1. The Reviewer's Job
2. How to Phrase a Review
3. How to Write a Review
4. The Author's Job

And then... what does it mean if a story passes HASA's review? Nothing much. It means that five to nine people liked it enough to click on "approve". That's all. It doesn't say so very much about the story's quality. The reviews at HASA are not intended to help the author, they are only meant to keep up a certain standard in the public archive. You may get valuable feedback, but that is not a certain prospect.

About the right of the reviewers to judge the quality of a story - well, they have as much a right to say "I think this is a good story, because (xyz)" as every other reader of your story.

re 2: I'm sorry if I have to destroy some illusions there... being part of HASA's staff... the admins care about keeping HASA running and a lively community... the reviews admins don't care about which story gets in and which doesn't get in so much as that people stay civilized about the whole process.

re 3: I have a comparison of three archive sites, FFNet, HASA and TFF. For my published short stories HASA gets me more hits than FFNet, for my long stories HASA and TFF are about the same and not really good. What's more is that I get almost no feedback from the public side. So while I do love HASA, I don't think you have to worry so much about getting published there or not.

re 4: HASA review cannot be compared to standardized admission tests. It's more like a poll. You ask at least nine people to read your story, and they say "Yes, I like it, because..." or they say "No, I don't like it, because...".

And at least HASA has no discriminating, prejudiced and biased submission guidelines like SoA and OSA. The process is anonymous, and if you don't run around telling all your friends "I have just submitted a story for review at HASA", it is unlikely that someone who knows your short story will review it. The reviewer pool is fairly large and you are not that well known in fandom that everyone will recognize your work at once.
And even if they do... do you really think that they are not able to say "I like this, because..." without lying?

I really don't understand what your psychological problem with reviewing is - you do beta-work, after all. In many ways that is also passing judgement over the quality of another person's story. You do that with every word of criticism.

And again - would the review by a robot be fairer? By a thing that does not know anything about life as a human being?

Sorry for the rant, but I'm rather involved in the problem of how to review at the moment!

[digdigil.livejournal.com]

Well, I don't think it matters that you have spoken against cliquish behaviour in the past. The most important issue here is that if anyone wants to effect a change at HASA to include some 'new' writers, then the best place to start is for all the 'new' writers to start sending in their stuff. Beta'd, of course. And for all 'new' writers to review all the pending stories. Besides, I kind of like HASA's open kind of policy of having members do the reviewing. I still think it's one of the best sites around for fanfic writers to display their work. Didn't more of the problems occur with the awards people? I don't remember. BTW, Juno talked me into joining the HASA Welcome Team, so I have. They need a Welcome Manager and I didn't think I could do that because of my lack of knowledge of the technical stuff about computers, but I have become an assistant on the Welcoming Team.

[dawn_felagund]

First of all Dawn should read an excellent essay about "How to Review" that a certain JunoMagic just posted and SSPed just about everywhere.

Dawn read this essay the day it was posted in Juno's LJ. ;)

And then... what does it mean if a story passes HASA's review? Nothing much.

That is not what I am worried about. If it didn't pass, I think I'd be disappointed but not much. It is far worse, from me, to get a harsh opinion from a writer I know and respect than an anonymous reviewer. I am more concerned with whether or not I can overcome my disagreement with forcing stories to pass review before archiving in order to submit my own work there. (And this is not just HASA...that is the convenient example as it is the "review" archive I visit the most and the one I am specifically considering at the moment.)

The reviews at HASA are not intended to help the author, they are only meant to keep up a certain standard in the public archive.

And that is exactly why I have a problem with such processes.

A certain standard of what? Quality? I am sorry, but I am not nervy enough to assume that my opinion is any judge of quality. I have my opinions, yes, and I willing give them in betas and reviews (not for archiving), but I cannot judge "quality" and I do not think that anyone else can either.

I might think that a purple-haired, unicorn-riding OFC who marries Legolas and fries Sauron with her Magick Eye Lasers (tm) is poor quality, but doubtlessly, there are other readers who would find this a fun and entertaining story and would find my character-based, psychology-infused babblings to be incredibly unexciting and bland.

I have no problem with the offering of opinions, but I do have a problem when a group of people takes it upon themselves to place a label of "quality" on a piece of writing.

re 2: I'm sorry if I have to destroy some illusions there...

I'm not sure what illusions you think you are destroying. I was being very sarcastic in that point.

re 4: HASA review cannot be compared to standardized admission tests.

I am not attempting to compare HASA review to standardized tests. I am attempting to compare my opinions on both as things with which I do not agree but might do simply because the opposite results in more harm to me than good and does nothing to further my point.

Do I disagree with standardized tests for university admission? I do. But to refuse to take them, who am I hurting? Only myself. The folks who run the SAT and GRE in the U.S. sure don't care whether I show up or not.

Do I disagree with forcing a story through quality control before publishing it? Again, I do. But am I accomplishing anything by refusing to put my work there? To remove the sarcasm from point #2 since my sarcasm obviously wasn't blatant enough, I do not think that any archive would care--nor am I prideful enough to think that they should care--that I am not submitting my work there. So what is accomplished? Again...nothing.

And at least HASA has no discriminating, prejudiced and biased submission guidelines like SoA and OSA.

I haven't spent much time in these places, so I'm curious what these standards are. That they don't accept slash? Just curious. :)

I really don't understand what your psychological problem with reviewing is - you do beta-work, after all.

I have no problem with reviewing. I have a problem with people who believe that their opinions count as a suitable judgement of quality or not and do not call acceptance into such an archive for what it is--x people's opinions--and instead try to pass such judgement off as an indicator of quality.

And again - would the review by a robot be fairer? By a thing that does not know anything about life as a human being?

That is not what I am saying. I am saying that I do not think that quality can be based off of anyone's opinion, human, robot, monkey, or Elf.

Sorry for the rant, but I'm rather involved in the problem of how to review at the moment!

Please don't be sorry. Dawn's LJ is never a rant-free zone. Quite the opposite in fact. ;)

[callirhoe.livejournal.com]

Would you like to hear a personal anecdote? :-P

In the distant past (or about two years ago, which is about the same in this digital age) I submitted something to HASA and was rejected, and I really felt crushed about it. I guess I was thinking that somehow my "worth" as a writer was dependent on my ability to write what other people wanted to read, something that would be accepted into the prestigious circles of Tolkien-fic. So then I promised myself that someday I would write something "good enough" to make it into that particular archive...

And earlier this year I finally did it, submitting one poem for review that had consistently been praised by reviewers -- even was nominated for a Mithril Award (*preens* ...because I am a very vain person :-P), and I thought, well, if anything of mine will ever make it in, this will be it.

So I submitted it, and waited anxiously for about a week, until I got the e-mail from HA: "Congratulations, your submission has been added to the archive," and so on. And the thing is, I was happy for a few hours, and then I didn't even care anymore. It just didn't matter to me that anyone thought that my work was worthy of being archived on the site, because that one poem was so uncharacteristic of me -- normally, my writing is a lot less popular than that one, and I approached writing it a different way than I approach most of my writings, because I wrote it for a challenge -- what other people wanted to read, not what I wanted to write. And what does that even mean, then, that it was approved for the archive? That I have succeeded in writing something that other people feel is an "addition to the genre" or a piece worthy of being included in the archive?

Don't get me wrong, I like HA. I like the people, I like the community feeling, I love the fact that so many people love it so much. But I've learned that these selective archives are tricky business, because it's not dependent on what is liked/disliked, but on what the reviewers feel is "worthy" to go into the archive. I'd rather stick with the Pit, write what I want to write, and take my chances on the tripe and the Sues, than have to tailor my writing to what I think has a good chance of being accepted into the archive.

Bleh, now I just sound pompous and self-aggrandizing. Really I'm not -- I hope -- but I just don't feel that it proves anything to get accepted into HASA.

That said -- go for it! It is still a bit of a rush, knowing that you have been accepted into one of the more prestigious Tolkien archives, and when a review comes back negative, I find that they have some really great comments as to the precise reason *why* they didn't want to accept it into the archive, and how it can be improved. :-)

[dawn_felagund]

Yay! You'll be great on the Welcome Team. :)

For the record (because I have this bad feeling that my question is being taken as an insult to HASA, and that is not my intent), I do not think that the review process is cliquish. Actually, as far as such things go, it is fairly well done in that it is double blind versus having the author and/or reviewer known. That makes it fairer, yes.

My problem comes--and I used HASA as an example because it was most convenient and also the archive to which I am considering sending my work at the moment--with people thinking that their opinion counts as a judge of quality for inclusion in an archive...and I don't think that this is possible or right. So the question then becomes: Am I hypocritical for putting my story through a system with which I do not agree, solely to gain an audience?

[isil-elensar.livejournal.com]

I've yet to submit anything for the public side of HASA. I've been rather content to leave my drabbles (that's all I have there now) on the member's side. *shrug*

I'm sorely tempted to start pulling things down again. I know I can't please everyone with what I write, but what's bad is when a friend I had the support of through most of a relatively short writing career decides to start questioning my work. The angry part of me could get petty and start questioning hers... but I'm not. I'd rather just pull it down and save the ONE nice review I did get.

Sorry to rant here. Some things I just can't understand...

[dawn_felagund]

Thank you for your anecdote...and congratulations on your acceptance and your nomination! :)

I'd rather stick with the Pit, write what I want to write, and take my chances on the tripe and the Sues, than have to tailor my writing to what I think has a good chance of being accepted into the archive.
Bleh, now I just sound pompous and self-aggrandizing.

No, you don't...not to me, anyway! I think this goes along the lines of what I was saying about literary magazines: Some stories are "fit" for some magazines and others are not. It is not a mark of quality (or lack thereof); it is more a matter of what fits the tastes of the editors and the traditions of the magazine.

For example, where I currently edit (Antithesis Common), we might accept (and love!) a certain piece that is more "literary," based on themes of acceptance and diversity, because the magazine is one committed to promoting such stories. Now if we got a shoot-'em-up alien adventure tale, we might not accept that because those are not the kinds of stories that we take. It is not to say that the story is bad or poor quality. It could be the best shoot-'em-up alien adventure ever written, in the views of people who like those sorts of stories.

And that is the problem that I have with most archives that require review. They fail to make the distinction between what they find "fit" material and what counts as "quality." I would have no problem if HASA, for example, made themselves out to be an archive dedicated to showcasing Tolkien fiction done in a more "literary" style...but they don't. They call passing review a mark of quality, and I don't see it as that. To someone, the most egregious "Mary Sue" or the most graphic BDSM slash is quality.

When I rate stories for AC for the editor to choose, I don't see myself as choosing quality fiction so much as stories that I enjoy and I think would fit well in the magazine.

I also like Henneth-Annun--both the archive and the Yahoo group--and many of my good friends I met there. But I think that too often writers feel the need to stick a label of "quality" on everything they see rather than acknowledging that any writing community is made up of a diverse group of people with varied tastes.

I'm also fond of the Pit, btw, simply because the pearls and the dreck all moosh together in a nice blend of fic soup. Now there's a tasty image! :^P And as to what counts as "pearls" and what as "dreck"...that is for each individual to decide. ;)

[digdigil.livejournal.com]

Okay, then, so to answer your question, "Am I hypocritical?" then yes, you are. But not as a person, only on this issue. But who cares? Like you replied to Juno, refusing to take a standardized admissions test for Uni is only going to hurt you, and refusing to submit a story to HASA is only going to deprive you of possibly getting a story accepted to one of the best sites around. I admire your opinion that no one has the right to judge the quality of another writer's beta'd piece of fanfiction, but that is HASA's policy, and if you want to submit there, then you have to go through their submission process.

Now Dawn, do you know how I bad I felt telling you that on that point I agreed that you were being hypocritical? *SOB* But I did it only because you asked, and I couldn't find any way around it unless I wanted to be your boot-licking sycophant. And I really don't care if it is hypocritical or not. Just go and submit your story there anyway. Sometimes we just have to choke back our bile and do things we don't agree with but that we know will be good for us in the long run. (And I love you so much Dawn, and I'm sorry!)

[dawn_felagund]

You're welcome to rant any time you'd like. ;)

I write because I have to, and I've gotten my share of criticism. Some I agree with and others I strongly disagree with...but still I write.

Now as for posting...that's a different animal entirely! I can imagine that if I had my stuff posted in a place where it seemed to be thought of as really inappropriate, I might pull stuff down too. Or maybe not, just to be a b***h like that. ;)

It's a fine line to walk and my short career in this community has taught me that there are a lot of aggressive, paranoid nutjobs out there. Maybe one per hundred of good, "normal" people that I've met, but they're still there.

I still fangurl you, for what it's worth. I wish I had more time to keep up with your writing. I was in love with your Celeborn story and haven't even had time to keep up. *hangs head*

[dawn_felagund]

Awwww.... You're so sweet and cute, Jenni! Do you know how much I'm smiling right now? Please don't be sorry. These are the kinds of opinions I asked for, and I never want my friends to tell me what I want to hear. :)

So I'm sending lots of love and *hugs* and thanks back. :)

[mirien.livejournal.com]

I think you should, Dawn. The HASA review system has its flaws but at the end of the day, it does help to maintain a very high standard. I have stuff there I submitted aeons ago before I decided I realised it was less important to me to have my work published there. But now you've brought it up, I may go back, just to see if they would take some of the slash stuff.

What I will say though is yes, the HASA system does make for site with (largely) a very high standard, but it is also, as I know you know, not the be all and end all. Getting rejected in no way means the story isn't good or worthy of HASA, it just means the 9 reviewers who got to it first overall chose to reject it. In that sense it is very random and very much a game of chance. I mention that because I know how as writers, rejection can be tough to handle, no matter how level headed we are, these are our babies - both the Elves and the work they are in!

All that said, go for it! I may go and reinstall my reviewing privileges!

[juno-magic.livejournal.com]

*sigh*

As I understand it the reviews process at HASA is meant to insure nothing more and nothing less that 5 to 9 readers say "Yes, I like this story, because...".

It's not an absolute judgement of quality and no admin at HASA will say that it is. It's more like, if nine average readers are willing to give you in writing that they don't like this story, because... then that is an indication that it's not what people who come to HASA want to read there.

I think you have a problem with the attitudes of people who review. In a way I think that's strange, because you say you have no personal experience with reviews at HASA. You are not reviewing at HASA and you have never submitted a story for review at HASA. So... I think it's a bit unfair to single the reviewers at HASA out and assume that they are people who believe that they can pass judgement about submitted stories as if they were "an absolute truth".

I am one of those reviewers. A couple of other people on your flist are or have been reviewers there, too.

I am saying that I do not think that quality can be based off of anyone's opinion, human, robot, monkey, or Elf.

On what can quality be based in your opinion?

Other archives: certain genres may not be submitted at all, such as "Tenth Walker", "girl falls into Middle-earth", "slash"; OCs may only be submitted if they are not "Mary Sues". It is not clear who gets to decide if a story is accepted for those archives, how many people are involved in that decision and on which guidelines this decision is based.

I don't like that. It's not fair.

[juno-magic.livejournal.com]

I'd rather stick with the Pit, write what I want to write, and take my chances on the tripe and the Sues, than have to tailor my writing to what I think has a good chance of being accepted into the archive.

I'm totally with you. The management of the Pit is shit, but it's as free as fanfiction can get online at the moment. I value that freedom so much that I can overlook the management problems!

[juno-magic.livejournal.com]

All that said, go for it! I may go and reinstall my reviewing privileges!

Please do so. I think that the standards of the HASA system are based actually on something like "poll" among readers. If 5 to 9 readers are willing to take the time to say "I like this story, because..." then it certainly deserves to be showcased in the public archive. If 5 to 9 readers are willing to take the time and the trouble to say "I don't like this, because...", then that does not mean the story is bad, but maybe not quite what the majority of readers would like to see *showcased* on the public side of HASA.

The catch is that this poll will be fairer if the reviewer pool is larger and more mixed. If you have a very large pool of active reviewers with many different preferences, each submitted story has a better chance to get really a judgement by "the average reader" and not by a dedicated minority that may have developed prejudices and blind spots with the passage of time.

*sigh*

[isil-elensar.livejournal.com]

You're welcome to rant any time you'd like. ;)

Thanks. I try to keep it to a minimum, but sometimes I just can't help it. Actually, I've been ranting a lot lately. Maybe the stress I've been under the last couple months is *finally* beginning to get to me. I hate that. I really need a vacation soon.

I still fangurl you, for what it's worth. I wish I had more time to keep up with your writing. I was in love with your Celeborn story and haven't even had time to keep up. *hangs head*

*hugs* Thank you, Dawn. I appreciate it a lot. And don't worry about the Celeborn fic. It's not going anywhere at the moment anyway, so when you get the chance to catch up, just run on over to my lj. Apparently Cel and Roselinde have gone on vacation with Thranduil and Eden, but at least I still have Elladan and Cassandra to play with, so I've not been left alone entirely. AND I got those two SWG challenges to get done as well. ;-)

[frenchpony.livejournal.com]

Well, I have forty-five minutes before I must present myself in the gamelan room. That's time for one long, considered reply, and you're it. Congratulations, for what it's worth.

I personally have quite a few objections to HASA, besides the fact that you need to show them your e-mail to get in, and I'm not willing to do that. HASA strikes me as the University of Michigan of fanfiction archives -- it produces roughly equal parts stellar work and tsuris. Just as the University of Michigan, although nationally recognized as an excellent school, finds itself embroiled in very loud public battles over affirmative action and reports from current students that the administration makes it almost impossible to get out of that school, HASA causes lots of people to worry, angst, bite their fingernails, get into long, bitter online arguments with each other. . . over what? Fanfiction?

HASA certainly sets itself up as The Best Of The Best, and they do have some basis for that claim. Probably ninety percent of what they post there is good, if somewhat repetitive in style. On the other hand, there are equally good archives out there. Stories of Arda is my personal favorite (it's now my primary archive), and it's well worth checking out. SoA doesn't set itself up to be the be-all and end-all of Tolkien fandom, the site owner is a very nice lady with endless reams of patience and a real commitment to making sure everyone has a good time. So, is HASA in some way "better" than SoA? I don't know. It doesn't have the reputation, certainly. But it also doesn't have either the hubris or the tsuris* that seems to follow HASA wherever it goes.

I guess I'd tell you this: If the fact of having a short story up at HASA will make you happy, go for it. Submit a story, see what happens. But don't hang your entire self-esteem on it. It's really not worth it, and there are other, perfectly good places out there. When all is said and done, this is just a game that we play. It's not worth getting yourself terribly worked up over a game.




*Look at me! Greek and Yiddish in the same sentence!

[tarion-anarore.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure I'm in a position to say "yes, definitely" or "hell no!", seeing as none of my stuff is posted at any archive, only on LJ, with the exception of one challenge entry at HASA.

*shrug*

Wow, I'm sure that was very helpful! :P
But, if you decide to, (like I said), you could pick any story. I like them all!!

[dawn_felagund]

I think you have a problem with the attitudes of people who review.

No. I don't. I can't have a problem with the attitudes of people who review, never having experienced said attitudes. 99% of my experiences with people from HASA have been positive, which is not something I can say of other archives which I occasionally visit.

My problem is with the notion that a group of people--no matter how large, small, experienced, or inexperienced--can judge "quality." Archives place restrictions on what works they accept in order to assure a certain level of "quality" are--in my opinion--taking something upon themselves that no individual can do. Quality means many different things to different people, and I don't believe that 9 or 9 million readers can accurately label a work as quality or not.

So... I think it's a bit unfair to single the reviewers at HASA out and assume that they are people who believe that they can pass judgement about submitted stories as if they were "an absolute truth".

I said to Jenni above that I do not mean to be unfair to HASA. It is the place to which I am currently considering sending my work, and I could change "HASA" to "OSA" or "SoA" or anything else, and my point would be the same: I do not think that any person can be a judge of "quality" aside from their own personal opinions. This is my opinion. You (or anyone) is welcome to disagree with me and as vocally as you like.

Nor did I mean it to be brought down to the individual level, to label people who review for archives as Bad People (tm). Do I think this? Of course not! I have a problem with the system and, again, people are welcome to disagree with me. Obviously, I don't think that you are a bad person with bad intentions for reviewing, nor would I place that label upon anyone else individually. But this doesn't change my view that no review system can accurately gauge quality.

I am one of those reviewers. A couple of other people on your flist are or have been reviewers there, too.

And that's every individual's choice and one that I respect. My problem with a system does not mean that I have a problem with the people who use it. I'm really quite baffled that this seems (to me) to be taken as a personal attack when it was not intended that way. If people like such a system and want to utilize it, that is their right and I respect their right to that opinion. Mine just happens to differ. There is nothing personal intended in that.

On what can quality be based in your opinion?

I see a difference between quality in my opinion and quality in general. For me to say that I find a story quality in my opinion is fine...but I don't presume that my opinion should then be extended as a general view on quality...or lack thereof.

It happens that I find most "Mary Sues" to be low quality in that I, as an individual, would not wish to read them. But for me to slap a label of "low quality" upon such a story and declare it as unfit for a certain archive is a leap that I personally am not willing to make.

Other archives: certain genres may not be submitted at all, such as "Tenth Walker", "girl falls into Middle-earth", "slash"; OCs may only be submitted if they are not "Mary Sues".

Ah. Having read the guidelines at OSA in an age long past, that does sound familiar. (I'm sure I've read it at SoA too...but that age has passed beyond memory!) Need I say that I agree that this is unfair, given my attitudes on accepting things into archives? :^P But then, I tend to dislike labeling stories in general. It reminds me too much of the "literary"/"genre" label that people throw around in the non-fanfic world as an excuse to exclude certain stories.

But again, there are people on my flist who are active at SoA and OSA. Just because I disagree with some of the policies of their communities does not mean that I think less of them.

[dawn_felagund]

I think that the standards of the HASA system are based actually on something like "poll" among readers. If 5 to 9 readers are willing to take the time to say "I like this story, because..." then it certainly deserves to be showcased in the public archive. If 5 to 9 readers are willing to take the time and the trouble to say "I don't like this, because...", then that does not mean the story is bad, but maybe not quite what the majority of readers would like to see *showcased* on the public side of HASA.

It's funny because I don't find my nails digging into my palms so much when you word it this way as I do with the whole notion of "maintaining a certain level of quality." This brings it back down to the level of individual opinion rather than attempting to achieve some sort of actual grade of "quality" through the votes of a few people.

[dawn_felagund]

What I will say though is yes, the HASA system does make for site with (largely) a very high standard, but it is also, as I know you know, not the be all and end all.

Yes, this I do know! :) I think that one of the first (and hardest) lessons that I learned as a writer was that I should not take any single person's opinion of my writing as an absolute. I once had a story that half of my readers loved and the other half (including the professor :^/) thought was vile and cliche...that would make for an interesting review! (Unfortunately, it was not fanfic, or I might give it a go! :^P)

Perhaps that I do know that it is not the be all and end all is why I get so miffed not so much at the system they use (as I realized when I read Juno's comment to you) but the reason they give for using it. Because I see it as what it is: nine people's opinions. To me, nine people's opinions cannot judge quality...nine million people's opinions cannot judge quality!

I mention that because I know how as writers, rejection can be tough to handle, no matter how level headed we are, these are our babies - both the Elves and the work they are in!

This is true. :) But I find myself less scared of anonymous rejection (rejection by someone I know and respect is so much harder!) than like I am being untrue to my principles.

*sigh*

The Melkor and Manwe on my shoulders are having quite the bickering contest! :^P

[juno-magic.livejournal.com]

see a difference between quality in my opinion and quality in general.

Ummm.

But the system is not based on "quality in general" or the assumption that there is something like "the absolute standard of quality in fanfiction".

Actually, the system is based exactly on what you mention: It is based on quality according to the opinion of each individual reviewer, with the final decision relying on the principle of majority.

There's no perfect system, and in my opinion there is no such thing as "objective quality" of any kind. But I do value the random 5 to 9 individual decisions of average readers, based on their individual opinions of quality.

People complain about wrong or right decisions... I guess when it comes down to it, there are no right or wrong decisions there, just as there's no "objective or absolute quality". But the majority of members at HASA does want a public archive that is not open for general posting. If that is what the majority wants, it seems to me that a polled decision based on the individual opinions of random readers is a pretty valid and fair way of arriving at such a decision.

Personally I definitely prefer open posting to all those different submission procedures. Allow people to write and post what they want within the limits of the law.

Here's to FFNet!!!!

[juno-magic.livejournal.com]

There have been *people* trying to make it about some kind of "general and absolute quality".

The canatics and fanonatics love to claim that they are able to judge if a story has this kind of quality. And HASA has (had) its share of such members. There are reasons why there are prejudices against HASA and negative opinions about HASA.

But... I think if I analyze the system as objectively as I can, sort of slipping into my political analyst mode, then I don't find the claim of general/absolute/universal quality wired into the system. It's rather an attempt to prevent a single person or a clique to completely taking over submissions procedures. The system is, of course, less than perfect... if people vote yes, just because they recognize a story, if people vote just because their friends told them to, if the reviewer pool is so small that only canatics and fanonatics review (who do indeed believe that they are upholding TEH absolute quality)... *sigh* no man made system is perfect. But for a system without open posting, HASA's approach is not that bad, because it does rely on the individual opinion of quality of nine random readers.

[dawn_felagund]

That's time for one long, considered reply, and you're it. Congratulations, for what it's worth.

Thanks! I've never turned down a long, considered reply. :)

HASA causes lots of people to worry, angst, bite their fingernails, get into long, bitter online arguments with each other. . . over what? Fanfiction?

True. I still maintain (despite evidence to the contrary) that this is a hobby and should be fun. (Not that I am pegging HASA as the sole culprit in the fanfic drama/angst arena. Actually, I've only had one opportunity to become miffed since belonging over there and have had more bad experiences with other archives that shall remain unnamed.) And I'm not worried about rejection any more than I worry over my weekly postings...actually less, because the people who read AMC are generally writers whose work I greatly respect and criticism from them tends to sting worse than from an anonymous source.

It doesn't have the reputation, certainly. But it also doesn't have either the hubris or the tsuris* that seems to follow HASA wherever it goes.

I'm very much an archive gypsy. I have no undying loyalty to any single group/archive except my own SWG (and we don't have an archive...yet.) I have HASA admins on my flist...and people who can't stand the place. So I've heard a good balance from both sides and still can't say that I'm unequivocable on either one but more standing in a big shade of gray.

I do have a problem with their review system, though. I have had anti-HASA friends complain that the people there are stuck up and only take a certain kind of writing. Many of these friends are fine writers, in my opinion, and if they were rejected, that only underscores (to me) the notion that "quality" is not for any group of people to decide.

If the fact of having a short story up at HASA will make you happy, go for it.

No, it's really not, that's the thing. If it was, I'd already be there! But I do want readers for my work and so am batting around my options...and came to the question of whether I thought it would compromise my principles to send my work there. If it was rejected...well, I'd move on elsewhere. End of story, no pun intended.