To Review or Not to Review? That Is the Question....

[dawn_felagund]

Recently, I have been batting around the idea of submitting one of my short stories for archive review at HASA. So why is this a big deal? Just do it, right, Dawn?

The problem is that I have always made such a big loud noise about how I don't agree with processes that claim to judge what is "quality" fiction, something that is made even worse online, where even "blind" submissions are often easily recognized as belonging to a certain author and therefore prone (in my opinion) to greater bias than a review by true strangers.


For example, many of you have stories that I would know as yours the moment I read them or read the titles, even, in certain circumstances. I admit that I would find it hard to separate my feelings for you as a friend or an individual from my judgement of a story. And the opposite is unfortunately also true: I am sure that there are people in the Tolkien fanfic community who would decline one of my stories just because it was written by me. (None of these people, as far as I know, belong to HASA. If they do, they are not active over there.) And it's not hard to know what stories belong to me. Go to my "short story" tag and there's a list right there.

Besides that, I simply don't agree that even a huge pool of reviewers have a right to decide what is or is not quality. Now I've had it brought up to me before: But Dawn, you are an editor for a literary magazine. And you have been a fiction editor before and had the difficulty of actually choosing the "best" stories from a pool of submissions. Yes, but I see this as different. A literary magazine, to me, is nothing but a collection of pieces that the editor(s) find particularly good. It is the editor's opinions, certainly not a declaration of quality at large. Were you to read the same pool of stories as me, you would probably "rate" some differently than I do. And a literary magazine, also, includes a certain kind of fiction. A story from the genre of science fiction might be excellent to readers of science fiction, but I don't think that it would ever appear in The Praire Schooner. Not because it's bad but because they don't publish that kind of fiction.

But archives that require a "review" to get in on the premise of only wanting to accept fiction of "quality" are, in my opinion, assuming that a team of reviewers can make such a judgement. Even the most atrocious blue-haired, purple-irised, unicorn-riding "Mary Sue" would be good fiction to someone. On the other hand, a dense, psychologically-based story dealing with the Elven view of mortality might breeze into most archives...but there would be readers who would hate it. There are doubtlessly readers who hate my stories, who think that I'm long-winded, blathering, and--at times--pompous (they're certainly right on the first two counts...I'm not so sure that I can count as pompous, though), and I know there are people who love my stories. Who's right? Who's to same I write quality fiction...or not?

And so I've always assumed that I would avoid archives that "review" stories for inclusion. But recently, I want to give it a try, for a couple of reasons.

1. I just want to see if it would be accepted. I'm curious. Curiosity may have killed the cat, but satisfaction brought him back.


2. I can't help but feel that I am pompous or prideful to assume that I am making some kind of impact by witholding my work from certain archives. Like the staff of these archives are wringing their hands even as I type this and considering revising their admission guidelines solely because Dawn Felagund doesn't agree with them, and they are somehow incomplete if they don't get stories by Dawn Felagund posted there. Hmph.


3. I want an audience for my work. And HASA is one of the most-read Tolkien archives, so to have my work there would be a good thing. (And eventually other "review" archives as well.)


4. Am I really compromising my principles to submit my work? I do not do reviews, not because I'm lazy or I do not wish to help other authors get into archives but because a) I do not trust myself to be fair in reviewing the work of a friend or someone well known to me and b) I do not believe that I have any right to determine what is quality fiction. But to submit one's work...is that really in violation of my belief that the system is wrong? I also do not agree with using standardized tests for admission into universities, but I have taken both the SAT and GRE, scored well on both, and am proud of my work. It doesn't mean that I am agreeing that standardized tests are appropriate admissions standards. It is simply something that I had to do to achieve a greater goal: getting into the university I wanted to attend. A necessary evil, to borrow the cliche.

So that's where I stand. I'm interested in people's opinions on this.


But if you'd rather give me your opinion anonymously (and just because they're fun and I'm paying for the ability to use them), here's a poll:

[Poll #669291]

Now that it's 3 o'clock and I've done my blathering for the day, I will stop procrastinating and do some writing.

Comments

[digdigil.livejournal.com]

Of course you should do it, Dawn! You never know who is going to read it for review, and it could be people who will love it and accept it. No matter what happens, all the reviewers' advice will be helpful and extremely interesting to know.

[dawn_felagund]

Thanks. :) I am less worried about being declined than about feeling hypocritical. After all the hollering I've done about how I don't agree with review processes, to push one of my stories into one, just to get an audience...I wonder if I'm being hypocritical.

I'm interested to know the sorts of comments I will receive from reviewers too, truth be known. ;)

[juno-magic.livejournal.com]

First of all Dawn should read an excellent essay about "How to Review" that a certain JunoMagic just posted and SSPed just about everywhere.

Contents:
1. The Reviewer's Job
2. How to Phrase a Review
3. How to Write a Review
4. The Author's Job

And then... what does it mean if a story passes HASA's review? Nothing much. It means that five to nine people liked it enough to click on "approve". That's all. It doesn't say so very much about the story's quality. The reviews at HASA are not intended to help the author, they are only meant to keep up a certain standard in the public archive. You may get valuable feedback, but that is not a certain prospect.

About the right of the reviewers to judge the quality of a story - well, they have as much a right to say "I think this is a good story, because (xyz)" as every other reader of your story.

re 2: I'm sorry if I have to destroy some illusions there... being part of HASA's staff... the admins care about keeping HASA running and a lively community... the reviews admins don't care about which story gets in and which doesn't get in so much as that people stay civilized about the whole process.

re 3: I have a comparison of three archive sites, FFNet, HASA and TFF. For my published short stories HASA gets me more hits than FFNet, for my long stories HASA and TFF are about the same and not really good. What's more is that I get almost no feedback from the public side. So while I do love HASA, I don't think you have to worry so much about getting published there or not.

re 4: HASA review cannot be compared to standardized admission tests. It's more like a poll. You ask at least nine people to read your story, and they say "Yes, I like it, because..." or they say "No, I don't like it, because...".

And at least HASA has no discriminating, prejudiced and biased submission guidelines like SoA and OSA. The process is anonymous, and if you don't run around telling all your friends "I have just submitted a story for review at HASA", it is unlikely that someone who knows your short story will review it. The reviewer pool is fairly large and you are not that well known in fandom that everyone will recognize your work at once.
And even if they do... do you really think that they are not able to say "I like this, because..." without lying?

I really don't understand what your psychological problem with reviewing is - you do beta-work, after all. In many ways that is also passing judgement over the quality of another person's story. You do that with every word of criticism.

And again - would the review by a robot be fairer? By a thing that does not know anything about life as a human being?

Sorry for the rant, but I'm rather involved in the problem of how to review at the moment!

[dawn_felagund]

First of all Dawn should read an excellent essay about "How to Review" that a certain JunoMagic just posted and SSPed just about everywhere.

Dawn read this essay the day it was posted in Juno's LJ. ;)

And then... what does it mean if a story passes HASA's review? Nothing much.

That is not what I am worried about. If it didn't pass, I think I'd be disappointed but not much. It is far worse, from me, to get a harsh opinion from a writer I know and respect than an anonymous reviewer. I am more concerned with whether or not I can overcome my disagreement with forcing stories to pass review before archiving in order to submit my own work there. (And this is not just HASA...that is the convenient example as it is the "review" archive I visit the most and the one I am specifically considering at the moment.)

The reviews at HASA are not intended to help the author, they are only meant to keep up a certain standard in the public archive.

And that is exactly why I have a problem with such processes.

A certain standard of what? Quality? I am sorry, but I am not nervy enough to assume that my opinion is any judge of quality. I have my opinions, yes, and I willing give them in betas and reviews (not for archiving), but I cannot judge "quality" and I do not think that anyone else can either.

I might think that a purple-haired, unicorn-riding OFC who marries Legolas and fries Sauron with her Magick Eye Lasers (tm) is poor quality, but doubtlessly, there are other readers who would find this a fun and entertaining story and would find my character-based, psychology-infused babblings to be incredibly unexciting and bland.

I have no problem with the offering of opinions, but I do have a problem when a group of people takes it upon themselves to place a label of "quality" on a piece of writing.

re 2: I'm sorry if I have to destroy some illusions there...

I'm not sure what illusions you think you are destroying. I was being very sarcastic in that point.

re 4: HASA review cannot be compared to standardized admission tests.

I am not attempting to compare HASA review to standardized tests. I am attempting to compare my opinions on both as things with which I do not agree but might do simply because the opposite results in more harm to me than good and does nothing to further my point.

Do I disagree with standardized tests for university admission? I do. But to refuse to take them, who am I hurting? Only myself. The folks who run the SAT and GRE in the U.S. sure don't care whether I show up or not.

Do I disagree with forcing a story through quality control before publishing it? Again, I do. But am I accomplishing anything by refusing to put my work there? To remove the sarcasm from point #2 since my sarcasm obviously wasn't blatant enough, I do not think that any archive would care--nor am I prideful enough to think that they should care--that I am not submitting my work there. So what is accomplished? Again...nothing.

And at least HASA has no discriminating, prejudiced and biased submission guidelines like SoA and OSA.

I haven't spent much time in these places, so I'm curious what these standards are. That they don't accept slash? Just curious. :)

I really don't understand what your psychological problem with reviewing is - you do beta-work, after all.

I have no problem with reviewing. I have a problem with people who believe that their opinions count as a suitable judgement of quality or not and do not call acceptance into such an archive for what it is--x people's opinions--and instead try to pass such judgement off as an indicator of quality.

And again - would the review by a robot be fairer? By a thing that does not know anything about life as a human being?

That is not what I am saying. I am saying that I do not think that quality can be based off of anyone's opinion, human, robot, monkey, or Elf.

Sorry for the rant, but I'm rather involved in the problem of how to review at the moment!

Please don't be sorry. Dawn's LJ is never a rant-free zone. Quite the opposite in fact. ;)

[rhapsody11.livejournal.com]

And at least HASA has no discriminating, prejudiced and biased submission guidelines like SoA and OSA.

*blinks* On what are you basing this?

[callirhoe.livejournal.com]

Would you like to hear a personal anecdote? :-P

In the distant past (or about two years ago, which is about the same in this digital age) I submitted something to HASA and was rejected, and I really felt crushed about it. I guess I was thinking that somehow my "worth" as a writer was dependent on my ability to write what other people wanted to read, something that would be accepted into the prestigious circles of Tolkien-fic. So then I promised myself that someday I would write something "good enough" to make it into that particular archive...

And earlier this year I finally did it, submitting one poem for review that had consistently been praised by reviewers -- even was nominated for a Mithril Award (*preens* ...because I am a very vain person :-P), and I thought, well, if anything of mine will ever make it in, this will be it.

So I submitted it, and waited anxiously for about a week, until I got the e-mail from HA: "Congratulations, your submission has been added to the archive," and so on. And the thing is, I was happy for a few hours, and then I didn't even care anymore. It just didn't matter to me that anyone thought that my work was worthy of being archived on the site, because that one poem was so uncharacteristic of me -- normally, my writing is a lot less popular than that one, and I approached writing it a different way than I approach most of my writings, because I wrote it for a challenge -- what other people wanted to read, not what I wanted to write. And what does that even mean, then, that it was approved for the archive? That I have succeeded in writing something that other people feel is an "addition to the genre" or a piece worthy of being included in the archive?

Don't get me wrong, I like HA. I like the people, I like the community feeling, I love the fact that so many people love it so much. But I've learned that these selective archives are tricky business, because it's not dependent on what is liked/disliked, but on what the reviewers feel is "worthy" to go into the archive. I'd rather stick with the Pit, write what I want to write, and take my chances on the tripe and the Sues, than have to tailor my writing to what I think has a good chance of being accepted into the archive.

Bleh, now I just sound pompous and self-aggrandizing. Really I'm not -- I hope -- but I just don't feel that it proves anything to get accepted into HASA.

That said -- go for it! It is still a bit of a rush, knowing that you have been accepted into one of the more prestigious Tolkien archives, and when a review comes back negative, I find that they have some really great comments as to the precise reason *why* they didn't want to accept it into the archive, and how it can be improved. :-)

[dawn_felagund]

Thank you for your anecdote...and congratulations on your acceptance and your nomination! :)

I'd rather stick with the Pit, write what I want to write, and take my chances on the tripe and the Sues, than have to tailor my writing to what I think has a good chance of being accepted into the archive.
Bleh, now I just sound pompous and self-aggrandizing.

No, you don't...not to me, anyway! I think this goes along the lines of what I was saying about literary magazines: Some stories are "fit" for some magazines and others are not. It is not a mark of quality (or lack thereof); it is more a matter of what fits the tastes of the editors and the traditions of the magazine.

For example, where I currently edit (Antithesis Common), we might accept (and love!) a certain piece that is more "literary," based on themes of acceptance and diversity, because the magazine is one committed to promoting such stories. Now if we got a shoot-'em-up alien adventure tale, we might not accept that because those are not the kinds of stories that we take. It is not to say that the story is bad or poor quality. It could be the best shoot-'em-up alien adventure ever written, in the views of people who like those sorts of stories.

And that is the problem that I have with most archives that require review. They fail to make the distinction between what they find "fit" material and what counts as "quality." I would have no problem if HASA, for example, made themselves out to be an archive dedicated to showcasing Tolkien fiction done in a more "literary" style...but they don't. They call passing review a mark of quality, and I don't see it as that. To someone, the most egregious "Mary Sue" or the most graphic BDSM slash is quality.

When I rate stories for AC for the editor to choose, I don't see myself as choosing quality fiction so much as stories that I enjoy and I think would fit well in the magazine.

I also like Henneth-Annun--both the archive and the Yahoo group--and many of my good friends I met there. But I think that too often writers feel the need to stick a label of "quality" on everything they see rather than acknowledging that any writing community is made up of a diverse group of people with varied tastes.

I'm also fond of the Pit, btw, simply because the pearls and the dreck all moosh together in a nice blend of fic soup. Now there's a tasty image! :^P And as to what counts as "pearls" and what as "dreck"...that is for each individual to decide. ;)

[juno-magic.livejournal.com]

I'd rather stick with the Pit, write what I want to write, and take my chances on the tripe and the Sues, than have to tailor my writing to what I think has a good chance of being accepted into the archive.

I'm totally with you. The management of the Pit is shit, but it's as free as fanfiction can get online at the moment. I value that freedom so much that I can overlook the management problems!

[isil-elensar.livejournal.com]

I've yet to submit anything for the public side of HASA. I've been rather content to leave my drabbles (that's all I have there now) on the member's side. *shrug*

I'm sorely tempted to start pulling things down again. I know I can't please everyone with what I write, but what's bad is when a friend I had the support of through most of a relatively short writing career decides to start questioning my work. The angry part of me could get petty and start questioning hers... but I'm not. I'd rather just pull it down and save the ONE nice review I did get.

Sorry to rant here. Some things I just can't understand...

[dawn_felagund]

You're welcome to rant any time you'd like. ;)

I write because I have to, and I've gotten my share of criticism. Some I agree with and others I strongly disagree with...but still I write.

Now as for posting...that's a different animal entirely! I can imagine that if I had my stuff posted in a place where it seemed to be thought of as really inappropriate, I might pull stuff down too. Or maybe not, just to be a b***h like that. ;)

It's a fine line to walk and my short career in this community has taught me that there are a lot of aggressive, paranoid nutjobs out there. Maybe one per hundred of good, "normal" people that I've met, but they're still there.

I still fangurl you, for what it's worth. I wish I had more time to keep up with your writing. I was in love with your Celeborn story and haven't even had time to keep up. *hangs head*

[mirien.livejournal.com]

I think you should, Dawn. The HASA review system has its flaws but at the end of the day, it does help to maintain a very high standard. I have stuff there I submitted aeons ago before I decided I realised it was less important to me to have my work published there. But now you've brought it up, I may go back, just to see if they would take some of the slash stuff.

What I will say though is yes, the HASA system does make for site with (largely) a very high standard, but it is also, as I know you know, not the be all and end all. Getting rejected in no way means the story isn't good or worthy of HASA, it just means the 9 reviewers who got to it first overall chose to reject it. In that sense it is very random and very much a game of chance. I mention that because I know how as writers, rejection can be tough to handle, no matter how level headed we are, these are our babies - both the Elves and the work they are in!

All that said, go for it! I may go and reinstall my reviewing privileges!

[juno-magic.livejournal.com]

All that said, go for it! I may go and reinstall my reviewing privileges!

Please do so. I think that the standards of the HASA system are based actually on something like "poll" among readers. If 5 to 9 readers are willing to take the time to say "I like this story, because..." then it certainly deserves to be showcased in the public archive. If 5 to 9 readers are willing to take the time and the trouble to say "I don't like this, because...", then that does not mean the story is bad, but maybe not quite what the majority of readers would like to see *showcased* on the public side of HASA.

The catch is that this poll will be fairer if the reviewer pool is larger and more mixed. If you have a very large pool of active reviewers with many different preferences, each submitted story has a better chance to get really a judgement by "the average reader" and not by a dedicated minority that may have developed prejudices and blind spots with the passage of time.

*sigh*

[dawn_felagund]

What I will say though is yes, the HASA system does make for site with (largely) a very high standard, but it is also, as I know you know, not the be all and end all.

Yes, this I do know! :) I think that one of the first (and hardest) lessons that I learned as a writer was that I should not take any single person's opinion of my writing as an absolute. I once had a story that half of my readers loved and the other half (including the professor :^/) thought was vile and cliche...that would make for an interesting review! (Unfortunately, it was not fanfic, or I might give it a go! :^P)

Perhaps that I do know that it is not the be all and end all is why I get so miffed not so much at the system they use (as I realized when I read Juno's comment to you) but the reason they give for using it. Because I see it as what it is: nine people's opinions. To me, nine people's opinions cannot judge quality...nine million people's opinions cannot judge quality!

I mention that because I know how as writers, rejection can be tough to handle, no matter how level headed we are, these are our babies - both the Elves and the work they are in!

This is true. :) But I find myself less scared of anonymous rejection (rejection by someone I know and respect is so much harder!) than like I am being untrue to my principles.

*sigh*

The Melkor and Manwe on my shoulders are having quite the bickering contest! :^P

[frenchpony.livejournal.com]

Well, I have forty-five minutes before I must present myself in the gamelan room. That's time for one long, considered reply, and you're it. Congratulations, for what it's worth.

I personally have quite a few objections to HASA, besides the fact that you need to show them your e-mail to get in, and I'm not willing to do that. HASA strikes me as the University of Michigan of fanfiction archives -- it produces roughly equal parts stellar work and tsuris. Just as the University of Michigan, although nationally recognized as an excellent school, finds itself embroiled in very loud public battles over affirmative action and reports from current students that the administration makes it almost impossible to get out of that school, HASA causes lots of people to worry, angst, bite their fingernails, get into long, bitter online arguments with each other. . . over what? Fanfiction?

HASA certainly sets itself up as The Best Of The Best, and they do have some basis for that claim. Probably ninety percent of what they post there is good, if somewhat repetitive in style. On the other hand, there are equally good archives out there. Stories of Arda is my personal favorite (it's now my primary archive), and it's well worth checking out. SoA doesn't set itself up to be the be-all and end-all of Tolkien fandom, the site owner is a very nice lady with endless reams of patience and a real commitment to making sure everyone has a good time. So, is HASA in some way "better" than SoA? I don't know. It doesn't have the reputation, certainly. But it also doesn't have either the hubris or the tsuris* that seems to follow HASA wherever it goes.

I guess I'd tell you this: If the fact of having a short story up at HASA will make you happy, go for it. Submit a story, see what happens. But don't hang your entire self-esteem on it. It's really not worth it, and there are other, perfectly good places out there. When all is said and done, this is just a game that we play. It's not worth getting yourself terribly worked up over a game.




*Look at me! Greek and Yiddish in the same sentence!

[dawn_felagund]

That's time for one long, considered reply, and you're it. Congratulations, for what it's worth.

Thanks! I've never turned down a long, considered reply. :)

HASA causes lots of people to worry, angst, bite their fingernails, get into long, bitter online arguments with each other. . . over what? Fanfiction?

True. I still maintain (despite evidence to the contrary) that this is a hobby and should be fun. (Not that I am pegging HASA as the sole culprit in the fanfic drama/angst arena. Actually, I've only had one opportunity to become miffed since belonging over there and have had more bad experiences with other archives that shall remain unnamed.) And I'm not worried about rejection any more than I worry over my weekly postings...actually less, because the people who read AMC are generally writers whose work I greatly respect and criticism from them tends to sting worse than from an anonymous source.

It doesn't have the reputation, certainly. But it also doesn't have either the hubris or the tsuris* that seems to follow HASA wherever it goes.

I'm very much an archive gypsy. I have no undying loyalty to any single group/archive except my own SWG (and we don't have an archive...yet.) I have HASA admins on my flist...and people who can't stand the place. So I've heard a good balance from both sides and still can't say that I'm unequivocable on either one but more standing in a big shade of gray.

I do have a problem with their review system, though. I have had anti-HASA friends complain that the people there are stuck up and only take a certain kind of writing. Many of these friends are fine writers, in my opinion, and if they were rejected, that only underscores (to me) the notion that "quality" is not for any group of people to decide.

If the fact of having a short story up at HASA will make you happy, go for it.

No, it's really not, that's the thing. If it was, I'd already be there! But I do want readers for my work and so am batting around my options...and came to the question of whether I thought it would compromise my principles to send my work there. If it was rejected...well, I'd move on elsewhere. End of story, no pun intended.

[tarion-anarore.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure I'm in a position to say "yes, definitely" or "hell no!", seeing as none of my stuff is posted at any archive, only on LJ, with the exception of one challenge entry at HASA.

*shrug*

Wow, I'm sure that was very helpful! :P
But, if you decide to, (like I said), you could pick any story. I like them all!!

[dawn_felagund]

Ah, you're confoosed like me. Nothing wrong with that. ;)

I actually have a story in mind. I was just curious to see if others would agree with me. Since no one's actually picked a story yet, though, y'all aren't helping me much! :^P

[atanwende.livejournal.com]

I've also been thinking about the fact whether I should submit on of my stories to HASA, but for me it's for a different reason. I'm terrified not really comfortable about other people judging my writing as in "Yes, you may" or "No, you musn't". I have the annoying habit of taking every critique extremely personal, though I know exactly that when someone is criticizing me it's most certainly not because they have an aversion to me as a person. But then, I could get a negative review anytime at the Pit and I'm not nearly half as bothered about that. *shrugs* It's kind of a paradox, really. (But a HASA rejection would feel more like "You're not good enough for us" to me, probably).

But well, no more rambling, I think you should simply go ahead and submit your story if you want to, even if you do not agree with the review system. Because how often do you say "Oh, I'd never do that" and some time later you do it anyway (I'm a prime example for that, really). There's nothing wrong about that, really. :-)

[dawn_felagund]

have the annoying habit of taking every critique extremely personal

I think that's common enough not to be annoying. ;)

There's almost an aura of The Great Unknown surrounding one's first review at HASA, I think. There's also the matter of anonymity...while it's valuable to keep it double blind to protect against as much bias as possible, there's also the fear of brutal honesty when you're not even a name to your reviewer and they remain unknown to you.

The rumors of harsh reviews or rejections based on minutia don't help to remove that allure.

(But a HASA rejection would feel more like "You're not good enough for us" to me, probably).

I can see that. Because the site certainly phrases it like, "We're the best. We only accept the best. If you're not accepted, you must not be the best." And that's unfortunate, I think, because that is not the attitude of most people whom I know from that archive, and statements like that in fact keep some of the best writing from being published there. Some of the best writers I know won't put their stuff through review at HASA. So it seems that pride comes with a price.

Now Feanor's glowering at me.... :^P

[tuxedo-elf.livejournal.com]

I'm not a fan of HASA for the same reasons as you... I just don't think 9 people have the right to decide if my fic is 'worthy' of their archive. But I do understand The need to know what they'd think of one of your fics... I've had similar, err, urges!

*Hopes this won't piss anyone off, has pissed off enough people for one day*

[dawn_felagund]

I just don't think 9 people have the right to decide if my fic is 'worthy' of their archive.

If it's phrased like that, I have no problem with it. It's not the choice that I'd make for my own archive, but that's me, and as long as the rules are clearly stated, I can't complain. But when a vote by nine people goes through a magical metamorphosis and becomes equated to a label of quality, that bugs me.

There's only one place on the main site that I could find that acknowledges that selection there isn't some lofty fanfic stamp of approval but rather a random sampling of preference of nine members. (And that was part of the FAQ devoted to assuaging the fears of people just like you and me!) I find myself cringing at the haughty tone taken elsewhere...and even though I have friends there, belong to the Yahoo group, and have posted stories on the members' side, I can see how others perceive the group to be exclusive, highbrow, and snobby.

*Hopes this won't piss anyone off, has pissed off enough people for one day*

*hugs Tuxie for house-hunting/inlaw turmoil* I've learned that to some people, criticizing their archive is like criticizing their home country! Maybe worse! :^P

But I don't think that you (or I) are alone in our misgivings. :)

[fanged-geranium.livejournal.com]

One thing I am curious about as regards HASA is who exactly is this 'public' for whom stories are 'showcased'? I joined HASA originally because I knew that stories I had been told about were archived there in the members section, so to read them I had to be a member too!

Anyway, I do think you would be rather hypocritical to submit your stories for review when you don't approve of the process, but I think you should do it, and if you do, you should also become a reviewer.

[dawn_felagund]

One thing I am curious about as regards HASA is who exactly is this 'public' for whom stories are 'showcased'?

I suppose in that instance it refers to those stories with the mettle to pass review that are made available to the 'net-surfing public.

I've posted quite a bit (for me, in an archive) on the members' side with very little response so far.

Anyway, I do think you would be rather hypocritical to submit your stories for review when you don't approve of the process, but I think you should do it, and if you do, you should also become a reviewer.

:^D That's a cool answer. That's the only words I can find to describe it!

The turmoil that would surround my actually becoming a reviewer.... *shivers* Given the response just to this, I might be best to keep that one off of LJ!

[ann-arien.livejournal.com]

While I think that the whole reviewing system at HASA and other such archives is not the best or most effective of ideas, I see no reason why you should not try to post there. I'm sure of your success and it's only fair to share your work with more readers. I feel privileged to know you and to know your writing, as well, and I'm sure that many people will feel the same if you decide to share.

BTW, knowing that you are somewhat involved at HASA... I've sort of submitted some of my un-betaed stuff over there, but I really wish I hadn't. Is there anything I or you could do to have them removed, in case they are still around there, somewhere?

Er, don't let the previous paragraph get to you. My writing is not HASA material, and I don't really want it over there. But yours is, and it should be made available in every archive.

[dawn_felagund]

I'm sure of your success and it's only fair to share your work with more readers.

Thank you. :) AMC will eventually be posted at the Pit, loyally, like I post in my LJ now. I will probably put it on other archives as well: definitely Tolkien Fan Fiction and others yet-to-be-determined. So I want to share my work more...I'm just not sure where.

And since I've been so vocal in the past about how a small group has no right to bestow a label of "quality" as meaning anything more than that small group's opinion, I wondered if I would be hypocritical to submit my own stuff to a process with which I do not agree.

Is there anything I or you could do to have them removed, in case they are still around there, somewhere?

Did you submit it on the members' only side? Or for review? And how long ago?
/20 questions ;)

If you let me know your author name, I can check what's still posted over there for you. You should still be able to log in, so far as I know, but I can't be certain. My own involvement there--as with anywhere else besides SWG--is merely glancing.

But of course I'll do my best to help you out! :)

My writing is not HASA material, and I don't really want it over there.

*is bothered by the notion that your writing is not HASA material*

And that's one reason why this stamp of "quality" irks me...because (to me) your stories are just that and are worthy of anywhere. Grrr....

Okay, I'm not going to rant, promise. ;)

[sinneahtes.livejournal.com]

Eep, that word "quality" -- I haven't ever gotten back to appreciating it as much as I once did since I saw a bunch of people in some random "badfic" bashing circle saying, "It's not fair that people think we're mean! What's wrong with writing QUALITY reviews?"

...and example of a "QUALITY review" from an example of a member consisted of, "*sigh* I can never understand why people do this [and whatever else the particular author did]! *sigh*" (Just to name one example)

(Though yeah, perhaps it was a little silly of me to let one person or a few people "ruin" something like that for me after all my eyerolling at people who act like Mary Sues are going to bring on the apocalypse. :P)

I dunno... I haven't been around HASA in a long time (a while ago, some days I was in the mood to read stuff there, and others, I felt like a lot of the stories sounded too similar to each other in terms of "feel," which kind of creeped me out even when I agreed a lot of the stories were "good," though I certainly won't swear my perception was accurate), but were I in your position, I admit I'd probably succumb to your reason #1--"I want to see if it could" can be a really strong motivation.

[dawn_felagund]

Eep, that word "quality" -- I haven't ever gotten back to appreciating it as much as I once did since I saw a bunch of people in some random "badfic" bashing circle saying, "It's not fair that people think we're mean! What's wrong with writing QUALITY reviews?"

Eegads. That's some...erm...review!

I'm not averse to archives that want their members to select stories, but it bugs me when a selection by a small group of people is then translated into saying something about the universal quality of that work. So my problem is less with the process than what they call the process.

And I don't think that you're silly for failing to have fun in such a group. Fan fiction is my hobby, which is part of the reason, ironically, that I get myself so worked up over these sorts of issues, when I see people failing to have fun or being hurt while participating in a community. Aren't we all here for the same reason? Because we enjoy writing? So why all the effort taken to make people feel bad about their hard work?

I admit I'd probably succumb to your reason #1--"I want to see if it could" can be a really strong motivation.

Lol! It is a strong motivation! It's like hiking and seeing a big rock and thinking, "Can I climb that??" :^P

[ithilwen.livejournal.com]

The answer to your question is simple: if you want your story posted on the public side of HASA, submit it for review. There's no big ethical question here; all archives (even ff.net!) use some screening method, and all those methods have both advantages and disadvantages. HASA's just a very large archive, and one of the older (if not the oldest) ones currently running (which is one of the major reasons it has so much baggage associated with it). It's neither the Tolkien Fandom Arbiter of Universal Excellence nor the Font of All that is Evil in Tolkien Fandom (though you'd never guess it from the way some people carry on).

[dawn_felagund]

That makes sense. :)

I don't take HASA as a standard of excellence or think that it's evil, which puts me at a middle ground where I get to hear both sides carry on.

And thank you!