Well, Our Christmas Shopping Is Half-Finished....

[dawn_felagund]

Yes, you read that correctly. Last night, Bobby and I officially began--and finished--half of our Christmas shopping.

Picture it: Dawn sitting at the desk, painting Meryth's cloak in a color called Goblin Green; Bobby sitting on the couch with his laptop surfing SCUBA sites. Now Bobby and I had made an agreement that Christmas this year is not going to be the exorbitant affair of years past. It has always been my philosophy that holiday monies are best spent doing things that will be memorable in years to come rather than buying junk that will be under the bed and forgotten by the New Year. Anyway, at last, I got Bobby to agree. Since we decided to pursue this whole underwater-as-a-hobby-and-career thing, we have been eyeing up a camera called the SeaLife camera, which is a top-of-the-line digital camera that functions both above- and underwater. We decided that rather than driving ourselves--and each other--nuts with piles of unneeded gifts this year, we would split the cost of the SeaLife camera, which we will both use and enjoy.

The SeaLife camera with all things included--including the strobe--costs (hold on to your seats, misers) $999. Yes, one of those "if I end it with a nine then no one will notice how dear it is." Harumph. You can buy the camera by itself for just over $500.

Returning to our happy picture of Dawn with green-painted lips (from licking my brushes all of the time; that detail in AMC does not come from nowhere) and Bobby surfing using the latest in Internet technology, Bobby suddenly blurts out, "Oh my god, I just found our SeaLife on sale on scuba.com--the whole package, strobe and all--for $500."

Silence falls.

"That's pretty cool," Dawn says, after verifying that the usual price is in fact about a grand, and goes back to painting Meryth's cloak--and her lips--a nice even Goblin Green.

More silence but one with a vivid imagination can hear the wheels turning in the House of Felagund.

"Soooo..." says Dawn.

(Now, just as background, Dawn is the Official Skinflint, Cheapo, Miser, and Tightwad of the House of Felagund. Bobby has to put her back in line all the time. Just the other night, at the movies, Dawn wanted a soda and realized that she had forgotten her coupon for a free one. "Oh, well," she said. "There's always next time." "Dawn!" Bobby shouted. "You can still get a soda!" "But it's four dollars for a medium....")

"Soooo..." says Dawn the Penurious again. Bobby gives her a careful look. "Are you going to get it?"

"I don't know," says Bobby, who has had enough ill-fated run-ins with his miserly wife to have learned to ask, "What do you think?"

"Well," says Dawn, "if we think of it logically, it seems foolish to wait three months and pay $400 more for something that we want to get anyway."

"True," Bobby agrees.

"We can put it on the credit card and pay it off when we set aside money for Christmas. And we can even keep it at one of the parents' houses so that we're not tempted to use it until Christmas. Then it will feel like we got it then anyway."

"True," Bobby agrees, and silence falls again. A few minutes later: "Soooo...should I order it?"

Now what do you think the outcome was?

(Though perhaps in honor of her penny-pinching forefathers, Dawn did advice to wait to add the $60 wide-angle lens until a later time.)

Comments

[frenchpony.livejournal.com]

Dawn, you are indeed a woman after my own heart. (Although my preferred method of acquiring expensive things is to wait and ask for them as birthday or Hanukkah presents.) Yes, dear God, yes, get that camera at five hundred if someone is offering!

And four dollars for a medium soda that's mostly ice anyway is utterly insane. Bobby knoweth not whereof he speaketh.

[dawn_felagund]

Well, then, it is pleasant to meet another miser! My father and grandfather are worse than me, so we joke that this is where I inherited it. (My sister is the same way; she is credited with turning Kirsty on to using coupons!) Growing up, we did not get anything name-brand from the grocery store unless it was on sale. I remember waiting five weeks for a bag of Doritos. And my grandfather--a millionaire and mostly blind--would nonetheless scan my grandmother's WalMart receipt with a magnifying glass to make sure that everything was in order.

Movie-theater concessions are ridiculous. And at most of the big megaplexes around here, you can almost get a full dinner: chicken strips, buffalo wings, popcorn shrimp, et cetera. I see people rolling up with trays full of food and drinks and know that that must have been about thirty bucks per person. That will pay for appetizers, meals, drinks, and 20% tip for both Bobby and me at the Trolley Stop.

I got the soda. *blushes* Though to be fair, it was a 32-ounce, and I'm accustomed to mediums being 20-ounce. If I'd known that, I could have gotten a small ($3.75....)

[frenchpony.livejournal.com]

I do allow myself some brand indulgences, but only if the brand proves to be superior to the generic. Things like canned tomatoes and acetominaphen are always just as good in generic, although I've found that with cream cheese, the generics can taste weird. Hot dogs (on the maybe one or two times a year that I buy them) I have to look for one of two or three brands, because they have to be beef.

The best thing to do, of course, is to find a place where you can buy stuff like herbs, spices, rice, chocolate chips, stuff like that in bulk. That's always cheaper. Once, back in Grad School Town, I went to the co-op with an empty bottle that had once held bay leaves. I weighed the bottle for the tare, then went to the bulk section and stuffed that bottle so full of bay leaves that I literally could not fit any more of them in. When I re-weighed it at the register, the scale could not detect any change in weight. The cashier and I both laughed about this, and he ended up charging me a quarter, primarily for show. I was one happy Pony, because I remembered buying that bottle new in a grocery store and paying about three bucks for it.

[dawn_felagund]

Ai, spices are ridiculously priced in the grocery store. Bobby loves vanilla bean ice cream and wanted me to make some, so I priced a "jar" of vanilla beans (two pods, which is what is needed for the recipe) and they were about $25. So he had to settle for French vanilla.

We have a couple of organic/natural food stores around here that we mean to check out, but we've yet to get around to it. Ellicott City is a strongly ethnic community--despite the makeup of the rest of Howard County--so it is my hope that we will find something.

[rinnor.livejournal.com]

I have to agree with frenchpony, find a co-op or ethnic grocery that sells what you want. One time I ventured to an Indian store to find the right masala to make a recipe from a friend; I stood there completely befuddled by the $1 cumin when I knew it was $5 or more at my regular store. Now I just buy my spices when I go to AZ and we go to the bulk spice store: I'm just in heaven at spending $5-10 and coming away with a good size bag of stuff.

My grandmother could pinch a penny until Abe screamed: she was 'famed' for making rag rugs and hats out of bread wrappers; yes crocheted plastic rugs and hats. And she bought her shoes at garage sales even though they didn't fit and twisted her feet something terrible. Granted, this was pre-Alzheimer's diagnosis. But the glittery slippers were pretty rad.

I've since lost some of my miserly ways, but not all. Free cash flow lets me have some indulgences but for the most I don't need much.

That being said, enjoy the camera! You're right, why wait and pay $400 more when you know it is something you will be getting anyway?

[dawn_felagund]

A bulk spice store sounds heavenly. Spices are so ridiculously overpriced at regular grocery stores, although anyone familiar with Maryland culinary tendencies would probably argue that all we need is a big tin of Old Bay anyway. :^P

Your grandmother's hats and rugs sound great, very unique! My grandfather was the family miser; my grandmother always wanted to buy stuff, would be denied by my grandfather, and so would go to great lengths to destroy that which she wanted to replace so that my grandfather had no choice. She peeled wallpaper, unraveled carpets, and many an appliance met its demise at her hands. Of course, my grandfather's tendencies were part of the reason that they ended up quite comfortable in their old age, but it still saddens me that they never really got to enjoy that money before they died. :^/

I've since lost some of my miserly ways, but not all. Free cash flow lets me have some indulgences but for the most I don't need much.

Sounds very familiar. :) When I was still a kitchen manager making ten bucks an hour, having spending money seemed like such a luxury. Now that I actually do have some, I find that I want to use it for...education and traveling. Having the fancy car and new clothes just doesn't mean so much anymore.

[rinnor.livejournal.com]

The problem with the bulk spice store is limiting myself to things that I might actually use. Still not sure why I bought cloves and what I thought I might use them for. But for 0.65, who cares?

Your grandmother sounds like a hoot! But yes, there should be a happy medium between saving and spending.

My grandmother was a gracious lady, but certain things just run through her life, like not being able to pass up a good garage sale. When it was time to clean out her house, my dad and uncle opened the window in the attic and just shoveled everything out to a dumpster below. Luckily, I managed to save the aluminum Christmas tree (which btw I've seen the last couple years in the Marshall Field's displays, just in better condition).

I have seen my future and I am my grandmother.

[aramel-calawen.livejournal.com]

Four dollars for a soda is insane... I get about 20 dollars' budget --converted into USD-- per week, for food (5 days, 15 meals) tuition (about 4 dollars for a tutor, who's a student from the university) plus any other unexpected things like notebook fees and whatnot, and still manage to have about 5 dollars left by the end of the week most times. But then, things tend to be cheaper here. I can get lunch for about 80 US cents and breakfast for about 5 cents.

4 dollars for a soda. Yeesh.

[dawn_felagund]

Movie theater (or stadium) concessions are ridiculous. Though you would probably fall over at the prices in general around here. When I was in university three years ago, I could not get a lunch and a drink for less than five dollars anywhere on campus. (Unless I made "lunch" a bag of chips and a soda.) And being vegetarian, my food is usually at least a dollar cheaper than something with chicken or steak. But I live in one of the richest states in the US, and the prices reflect that. All the more reason to move somewhere remote and keep company with fishes. ;)

[1lady-so-divine.livejournal.com]

LoL, weren't we talking about this at our get together?:)

at least you have the peace of mind that you got it cheaper than what it normally is. Like I was telling you yesterday, I almost got a cheaper digital camera until Brandon pointed out the one I have today which was more expensive(the route he goes), my Doc Martens cost the same as his though, lol, they're boots that are in the mens and women's section though.

[dawn_felagund]

Yes! Maybe we jinxed it in a favorable direction? :^D

I'm surprised that your Docs were the same as Brandon's in price. I remember watching a program once that uncovered that--although women's clothes and products are usually the same as men's except in small ways (buttons on a different side, different packaging et al)--women's stuff is usually considerably more expensive, presumably because women shop based on aesthetics and men based more on bargains. (Though they've never met me, obviously! :^P)

[niothwen.livejournal.com]

Now what do you think the outcome was?

I approve of sales. Yay!

The real question though should be: "Now do you think I'm going to be able to wrap my precious in sparkly paper and put it in the back of the closet till Xmas?"

I think you will.....but since I'm feeling tormented and abused by having to read slash by weekly installments, I'll let Morgoth have some fun I think you will....but you shouldn't. My parents are both photographers and feel a new camera requires a three-day trip to some exotic location to break it in and make sure everything works well, that there is no distortion in the lens, etc, etc, before the return/exchange clause runs out.

I'm sure there is some truth to this besides the obvious fun factor. Anyway, congrats on the new camera......and if it does sneak out of the closet, remember to post the pics here.

[dawn_felagund]

The real question though should be: "Now do you think I'm going to be able to wrap my precious in sparkly paper and put it in the back of the closet till Xmas?"

That's why I told Bobby that we really should entrust it to the keeping of one of the sets of parents because I know us: We'll be hiking somewhere, and one of us will say, "It would be nice to have the SeaLife," and it'll be out, and we'll then figure it's useless to put it back....

We are going to take it out just long enough to make sure that everything's in order, of course. ;) And Bobby's on the lookout for cheap airfare to Miami so that we can try out the camera and our new SCUBA skills in Key Largo. :^P

I think you will.....but since I'm feeling tormented and abused by having to read slash by weekly installments, I'll let Morgoth have some fun

Ooooh...you are evol! Is this a hint that you would like me to send you the whole story, in all its unedited glory?

Anyway, congrats on the new camera......and if it does sneak out of the closet, remember to post the pics here.

Thanks! And no worries...our first really successful reef pictures will be the *squee* heard around the world. (We took some in Puerto Rico, but unfortunately--since our current digital camera doesn't go underwater--we had to use cheap disposable cameras and most of the pictures did not turn out.) We'll also be unveiling a community soon for all of our undersea and overland adventures, and they'll be posted there as well.

[niothwen.livejournal.com]

Ooooh...you are evol! Is this a hint that you would like me to send you the whole story, in all its unedited glory?

Me: Yes, please.

Erestor: Don’t do it, Ms. Felagund. She must learn patience and control and await the outcome with the rest. Did you know this devious child used to peek at all her Christmas presents *glowers menacingly at exposed peeker* – and still does. She is undeserving of your generous gift.

Me: Crap! *pushes him in the closet*

Glorfindel: Now, now, we don’t want him back in there. *pulls him out, dusts him off, hands lingering...* I would like to read the story of your early life, Erestor. Must we wait?

Erestor: The story is about me?!? Well, of course, I could at the very least help proofread it.

Me: *rolls eyes* Dawn, thank you, but I think I will wait with the others. if he gets his hands on the story, it will no doubt be censored of anything drool worthy. You should have seen what he did to the copy of LaCE that he found in Gondor.

[dawn_felagund]

LMAO! So Erestor is to blame for the travesty that is LaCE? I think I like that idea best of any that I've heard yet.

And I'm proud of you for resisting my temptation. Chapters will continue to appear Sometime Thursday Evening. In the meantime, I'm hoping that no one else stumbles upon this post and tries to take up my offer, as sharing my unedited writing is soooo painful.... ;)

[sinneahtes.livejournal.com]

Okay, these days I'm scared to spend more than $5 at once, but... a...digital camera... that functions... underwater?!

*drooooooool*

:D

[dawn_felagund]

Yes, awesome, eh? That was pretty much my reaction too. I'm going to be very antsy, waiting for Christmas to try it out. We will probably taking a wee trip to the Florida Keys too, you know, just to make sure that the underwater bit works properly. :^P

[sinneahtes.livejournal.com]

Heehee, something like that found its way onto my Christmas list back in Puerto Rico, when my dad and I were snorkeling and my disposable film camera ran out of its 27 photos way before I started seeing the sea urchins and flounders and stuff! That was pure evil. Then there's also the fact that I'm lazy as heck about getting film developed... I guess it's nice to know you'll enjoy this year's Christmas present even if you have to wait for it. :D

[tarion-anarore.livejournal.com]

Those take such nice pictures!!! I wish my mom had had one when she was trying to take underwater pictures in Hawaii.

I'm the same way at movie theatres! I definitely don't feel bad about smuggling in candy! (Especially once when the theatre was in trouble, so took away student discounts. Needless to say, that theatre is no longer in business!)

[dawn_felagund]

Oh, I am the queen of theater smuggling. I have a huge purse since I frequently carry around books with me (*cough* The Silmarillion *coughcough*), and I have learned that it will fit three 20-ounce bottles of soda, i.e. Bobby, Potter, and Dawn. We used to stop at a WalMart next to the theater, spend a buck apiece for sodas from the vending machines outside, and save literally six dollars. When we would go to the movies at Arundel Mills mall, they have an awesome candy store...'nuff said. ;)

Bobby and I are bad people and since our student IDs don't have dates, we've been using them since we graduated. Of course, we really are students again now, so I don't feel so bad! :^P

[tarion-anarore.livejournal.com]

I have a big purse too! I don't know how many cokes it fits, but it could definitely hold a book - though I usually carry a small purse stuffed in my backpack.

The theatres around Tx Town don't even ask to see a student ID, usually. :)

[dawn_felagund]

Neither do they around here! But that's the price they pay for paying folks $5.15 to care.... ;^]]

[digdigil.livejournal.com]

Personally, I think you let Bobby order the $500 camera. And I hope you painted your toenails green instead of blue to match your lips.

[dawn_felagund]

Hell yeah, I did! :^D My family smells a bargain like a shark smells blood.

I actually think that I had green toenails once when I was thirteen. I decided to give the blue a break, but never again. A tasteful green that doesn't make my poor abused feet look nastier than they already do is hard to come by!

[ithilwen.livejournal.com]

Congratulations on your Christmas present!

[dawn_felagund]

Thanks! :^D *wanders away singing "Jingle Bells"*

[rhapsody11.livejournal.com]

Yes, you read that correctly. Last night, Bobby and I officially began--and finished--half of our Christmas shopping.

But it is still Summer! This is also where both our worlds are so apart. We don't do gifts with Christmas, we used to get gifts with Sinterklaas, but once I quit believing in him, that stopped too. And after the past years drama's caused by my brother, the Christmas spirit as in celebrating with family is killed too. Aaaanyhow :) Last year I got such an unexpected present from an author named Dawn Felagund and up to this day I still frequently read the story named 'The Gift'. Maybe because it reminds me that gifts don't necessarily are only given around Christmas...

{{{hugs}}}

[dawn_felagund]

But it is still Summer!

Hehe, yes! But the camera is going away until Christmas, where it will be unwrapped and enjoyed like any other gift. And $400 off was too much a deal to pass up....

This is also where both our worlds are so apart. We don't do gifts with Christmas, we used to get gifts with Sinterklaas, but once I quit believing in him, that stopped too. And after the past years drama's caused by my brother, the Christmas spirit as in celebrating with family is killed too.

I have trouble mustering much enthusiasm for Christmas these days too. I really enjoy the little traditions that Bobby and I have, but that's about it. The "gimme gimme gimme!" attitude and the idea that you have to spend hundreds of dollars on making someone happy and the nasty attitudes of people who have spent too much or don't think that they've gotten enough...I am happy this year to be sharing the cost of this camera with Bobby, getting a few piddly things here and there, and getting to enjoy the rest of the season. I know that my family situation was nowhere near as awful as yours last holiday, but they really put me off all the same, after years of preaching about how they'd never make us choose between families, then doing just that. This year, we are going to a Meyerhoff Symphony show and to New York City with both families; the rest of the time, I think Bobby and I will stay home.

Oh, and my sister will be in town in early December! *squee* So we'll hang out with her too.

Aaaanyhow :) Last year I got such an unexpected present from an author named Dawn Felagund and up to this day I still frequently read the story named 'The Gift'. Maybe because it reminds me that gifts don't necessarily are only given around Christmas...

*squee more* :^D I am so happy to hear that that gift meant that much to you. And the sad thing is that I asked people on my flist for gift requests, and within minutes, had a dozen responses...and many either never read their stories or never even wrote a comment to say that they had, even after asking for one. It was kind of hurtful, truth be told. Then I write a "surprise" story for one person; amid twenty-odd requests, I am trying to convince myself that it is the wise thing to do. "But Rhapsy never made a request; she might not even like the story; blah blah blah," and then you end up being the most wonderful and grateful of all about it. So maybe there is a lesson for me in there somewhere. :)

(Somewhere, Bobby is muttering, "Yeah, like you damned straight better not take open requests again this year!" :^D Poor guy; he had to put up with me for the duration of it....)

{{{{{hugs back}}}}} and thank you again! :)

[rhapsody11.livejournal.com]

And $400 off was too much a deal to pass up....

Oh yes, I agree! But I think I heard some weeks ago that in Harrods, London, they already started with Christmas sales and it was around 100F outside!!!

This year, we are going to a Meyerhoff Symphony show and to New York City with both families; the rest of the time, I think Bobby and I will stay home.

That sounds wonderful. With Christmas we tend to stay at home and those are really introspective days. Hubby is a hermit and this year I wonder if Kevin will crawl under the Christmas tree :)

I am so happy to hear that that gift meant that much to you.

It does... I remember that it popped up and I stared at it going like.. oh my and the story itself is amazing. I am very bad myself in keeping up with b-day fics or requests as I did in June, so I rather not ask if I can't make it myself.. And I am not such a gimme gimme person myself (unless it's shiney ;) ). I somehow always get these great bunnies to write for someone, some of them turn out to be epic or I end up too late meeting *that* deadline.

I still feel so guilty of not leaving a proper review, but will make up for that soon!

(Somewhere, Bobby is muttering, "Yeah, like you damned straight better not take open requests again this year!" :^D Poor guy; he had to put up with me for the duration of it....)

I am sorry Bobby! When was your b-day again? I feel writing a hockey game featuring an impressive line up of the Feanorians vs... hmm the house of Fingolfin? Hmmm I think Celegorm would shine as a right wing player... Curufin on the left, the twins as right and left defenders, Feanor as centre, Maedhros being the backup... Maglor in the goal... Celebrimbor as coach or universal backup or as a referee? Ut oh... where did this bunny came from?

[dawn_felagund]

But I think I heard some weeks ago that in Harrods, London, they already started with Christmas sales and it was around 100F outside!!!

Oh, I have no doubt! When I still worked in the restaurant, across the hall from us was a Hallmark store, which is the best known greeting card and gift store in this area. They used to get in their Christmas ornaments in July. I'm sorry, but that ruins it.

Now, they decorate the mall starting 1 November, the day after Halloween. The pumpkins come down and the Christmas lights go up. Ridiculous.

I'm a traditionalist: The holidays start the day after Thanksgiving, which is (I think) the third Thursday in November. We call that Black Friday here because it's the first big holiday shopping day of the year...or used to be. Now I guess people start in...July?

I wonder if Kevin will crawl under the Christmas tree :)

Oh! That's right! It'll be his first Christmas! How precious; I hope you post lots of pictures? *hopeful grin*

I still feel so guilty of not leaving a proper review, but will make up for that soon!

Please don't feel guilty. You didn't ask for the story, for one. My beef was with people who could type out a request five seconds after the post was up, I'd spend hours on a story, then they couldn't even read it. Or read it and couldn't even type a comment that said, "I read it." Three words. Four if they want to be extra-polite and say "Thanks." Secondly, there was a lot going on in your life at that time, iirc, and RL and Kevin (especially!) are more important than fandom. Thirdly, you did review it, iirc...then LJ ate the review. I know that you got the story and read it and liked it and that's enough for me! Then you nominated it for a MEFA, which completely blew me away!

I am sorry Bobby! When was your b-day again? I feel writing a hockey game featuring an impressive line up of the Feanorians vs... hmm the house of Fingolfin?

I told him this and he laughed. (Laughed in a good way!) He wants me to ask you if you follow NHL hockey or another league. (Sorry...the man is a hockey junkie; you might have opened a can of worms with this one!)

And his birthday is 8 April. ;)

[rhapsody11.livejournal.com]

They used to get in their Christmas ornaments in July. I'm sorry, but that ruins it.

Now, they decorate the mall starting 1 November, the day after Halloween. The pumpkins come down and the Christmas lights go up. Ridiculous.

Over here in my town they have a public ordanance that Sinterklaas (see my other comment) is not allowed to appear before the 5th of December, so therefore all Christmas ornaments will pop up around the 6th of December. Including Christmas cards ect ect. Some shops do start a wee bit earlier, but mostly a bit more hidden in the shops. Sinterklaas is still a big event here, so we have extra shopping days on Sunday (yes in this part of the country all shops are closed on Sunday) to buy gifts (which I haven't done for years, but well Kevin's first Sinterklaas... yay!) What they start to do aroudn October though is putting lights up on the city square (the largest in the Netherlands), so that is really atmospheric when the days start to shorten.

Oh! That's right! It'll be his first Christmas! How precious; I hope you post lots of pictures? *hopeful grin*

Oh yes!

I told him this and he laughed. (Laughed in a good way!) He wants me to ask you if you follow NHL hockey or another league. (Sorry...the man is a hockey junkie; you might have opened a can of worms with this one!)

Well I passed on my review for the Gift. :)

LOL I used to watch NHL hockey almost daily around I think 1992-1994. My dad loves it and he made me enthusastic for it (Eric Lindros, Mario Lemieux, Pavel Buren, Dale Hunter, John LeClair were heroes, and I still think I have my Toronto Maple Leaf jackets somewhere). But then the television hot shots decided that, due to commercial gains, that they wouldn't broadcast any american sports on the channel we watched or could receive over here. But now we have digital television and much to our delight they recently added ESPN. Hubby loves to watch baseball, so that is what I so far saw of it. What I heard was that the NHL has been crippled by salary strikes the past years, so if everything is back to normal I hope to see exciting games from the Eastern & Western Conferences.

[dawn_felagund]

The strikes for the NHL ended in time for last season, and they have a salary cap in place now, which I personally like because it becomes less an issue of who can buy the best team and more about who can build the best team. As a Baltimore sports fan, baseball is frustrating for me because I like (of course) the Orioles, but Peter Angelos our team owner is a tightwad who won't spend the money on decent players, and so we always end up at the bottom of the barrell. And the Yankees (our archrivals) inevitably win because they buy their championship. American football has had a salary cap for several years now with the result that every year, a different set of teams is really good and teams have to really plan how to spend their money. It makes it much more enjoyable, imo, to see your team have a bad year and know that in another couple of years, they'll have a chance again because teams are no longer allowed to horde all of the good players.

So I hope that's what is going to happen in the NHL too. Being a Maryland girl, I follow the Washington Capitals; we had a crappy season last year but have the best rookie of last year (Alex Ovechkin), so I'm hoping that with a few new players, the Caps will stand a chance this year.

And all those names you listed...when I first started dating Bobby, he worshipped those guys, had posters hanging in his room, had every jersey. Ai, it brings back the old times.... :)