Friday Memeage!

[dawn_felagund]

Firstly, the fannish5 is a goody!

Name five fanfic cliches you hate.

In order to avoid hurting feelings and causing drama (both of which y'all know that I despise), I would like to ask my that my replies be taken more as "Name five fanfic cliches that I generally find overdone and not particularly written to my tastes." I am sure--in fact I know--that there are excellent representations of all of these things but, most often, I find that they do not particularly suit me.

1. Evil!Feanor. Well, considering that I got so angry one day upon reading in a ff.net story that "Maedhros is the true villain in The Silmarillion" that I wrote a 350K-word novel trying to redeem him and his father...yeah, I feel pretty strongly that stories portraying Feanor as unequivocally evil are not generally to my liking. Yes, he can have negative traits--I think it's undeniable that he does--but his character is far more complicated than that, and I tend to feel that it's a rather shallow reading to dismiss his actions as caused simply by his inherent evil.



2. Pansy!Maglor. I think that there is significant evidence that Maglor is one of the gentler of the brothers. But all of these stories that picture him as a doe-eyed pacifist who would sooner wield a harp than a sword...well, I think that this is a selective reading of the text. Very selective. Because he is the same character who participated in three Kinslayings, did not stand aside at Losgar, ruled perhaps the most dangerous realm in Beleriand, and saved Maedhros by slaying Uldor. He is also the only one who--according to the text--strongly considered damning himself to the Everlasting Darkness in order to stop the evil of the oath. That's no pansy, folks; that is shows courage and fortitude that even my precious Maedhros does not seem to possess. And he is the only Feanorian to survive, and he did not do so by singing his way out of trouble. He bore his guilt and the pain of the Silmaril where even Maedhros committed suicide to escape.



3. Feanor Hates His Half-Brothers. Yes, it may have ended up this way, but I don't always think that there was such bitter hatred between them. In talking to someone on Pit of Voles once, she mentioned that her friend thought my Feanor OOC because in "Return to Me," Finarfin mentions that Feanor once jumped in the water to save a young Finarfin from drowning. So this person thought that Feanor would stand and let his baby brother die? I don't think so.
   
   I like nicely developed tension between the brothers even in the early years, but to say that there was unequivocal hatred...ehhhh, not so sure about that. It's not based in canon and seems (to me) more a cheap ploy to create angst.



4. Fading. Not the canon idea of fading--that Elven spirits overwhelm their bodies as they age until they become invisible to mortal eyes--but the popular fanon-based plot of So-and-so "fading" from grief and having to be "saved" by the love of someone else. I've never found canon evidence to support this idea of "fading," and the prevalence of accepting this fanon is irksome to me.



5. The Halls of Mandos = Elven Hell. I've done a good bit of writing ("Return to Me" and an unpublished novella "The Tapestries") on the Halls of Mandos, and I find them a fun place to play that often beg for the introduction of horror elements. However, too many stories put them as some form of Elven Hell or punishment, and I don't necessarily agree with this. And again, it seems a shallow reading designed to manufacture the chance for shameless angst.
   

Next, initially seen at juno_magic and since copied elsewhere: the stupid things meme!

My comments are in orange!

Level 1
( ) Smoked A Cigarette (not after watching my Uncle Wodie die of brain hemorrhages caused in part by smoking)
( ) Smoked A Cigar
( ) Done Weed
(X) Kissed A Member Of The Same Sex (platonically)
(X) Drank Alcohol

SO FAR: 2

Level 2
(X) Are / Been In Love
(X) Been Dumped
( ) Shoplifted
( ) Been Fired
( ) Been In A Fist Fight (no, but my sister has scars from a fight we had when I was 12! :( )

SO FAR: 4

Level 3
( ) Snuck Out Of A Parent's House
(X) Had Feelings For Someone Who Didn't Have Them Back
( ) Been Arrested (I wouldn't have my job if I had!)
( ) Made Out With A Stranger
( ) Gone Out On A Blind Date

SO FAR: 5

Level 4
(X) Had A Crush On An Older Person
(X) Skipped School
(X) Slept With A Co-worker (I married him!)
(X) Seen Someone / Something Die

SO FAR: 9

Level 5
( ) Had / Have A Crush On One Of Your LiveJournal Friends
( ) Been To Paris
( ) Been To Spain
(X) Been On A Plane
( ) Thrown Up From Drinking

SO FAR: 10

Level 6
(X) Eaten Sushi (vegetarian, though....)
( ) Been Snowboarding
( ) Met Someone BECAUSE Of Myspace
(X) Been Mosh Pitting (I've never been moshing or crowd surfing myself but I've been in general admission at concerts where it was the norm!)

SO FAR: 12

Level 7
(X) Been In An Abusive Relationship
( ) Taken Pain Killers
(X) Love(d) Someone Who You Can't Have
(X) Laidn On Your Back And Watched Cloud Shapes Go By

SO FAR: 15

Level 8
( ) Had A Tea Party
(X) Flown A Kite
(X) Built A Sand Castle
(X) Gone Puddle Jumping
(X) Played Dress Up

SO FAR: 19

Level 9
(X) Jumped Into A Pile Of Leaves
(X) Gone Sledding
( ) Cheated While Playing A Game
(X) Been Lonely
(X) Fallen Asleep At Work / School (my five-minute nap in my chair has become part of my routine at work!)

SO FAR: 23

Level 10
( ) Used A Fake / Someone Else's ID
(X) Watched The Sun Set
(X) Felt An Earthquake
( ) Killed A Snake

SO FAR: 25

Level 11
(X) Been Tickled
( ) Been Robbed / Vandalized
( ) Robbed Someone
(X) Been Misunderstood
( ) Pet A Deer

SO FAR: 27

Level 12
(X) Won A Contest
( ) Been Suspended From School
(X) Had Detention (I was given detention in freshman homeroom for saying "word association" during announcements)
(X) Been In A Car / Motorcycle Accident

SO FAR: 30

Level 13
(X) Have / Had Braces (not by choice)
(X) eaten a whole pint of ice cream in one night
(X) had deja vu
(X) danced in the moonlight

SO FAR: 34

Level 14
(X) Hated The Way You Look
( ) Witnessed A Crime
( ) Pole Danced
(X) Questioned Your Heart
( ) Been Obsessed With Post-It Notes (I wouldn't say obsessed, but they do help keep my sanity at the WAU)

SO FAR: 36

Level 15
(X) Squished Barefoot Through The Mud (yesterday...and not by choice!)
(X) Been Lost
( ) Been To The Opposite Side Of The World
(X) Swam In The Ocean / Gulf
(X) Felt Like You Were Dying

SO FAR: 40

level 16
(X) Cried Yourself To Sleep
(X) Played Cops And Robbers
(X) Recently Colored With Crayons / Colored Pencils / Markers (whenever we go to Rocky Run Grill and Tap, I decorate the paper on the tables with Stars of Feanor and Tengwar!)
(X) Sang Karaoke
( ) Paid For A Meal With Only Coins

SO FAR: 44

Level 17
(X) Done Something You Told Yourself You Wouldn't
( ) Made Prank Phone Calls
(X) Laughed Until Some Kind Of Beverage Came Out Of Your Nose
(X) Kissed In The Rain

SO FAR: 47

Level 18
(X) Written A Letter To Santa Claus
(X) Been Kissed Under A Mistletoe
(X) Watched The Sun Set With Someone You Care / Cared About
(X) Blown Bubbles
( ) Made A Bonfire On The Beach

SO FAR: 51

Level 19
( ) Crashed A Party
( ) Have Traveled More Than 5 Days With A Car Full Of People (no...two days down and two days back in a van with my inlaws to Florida)
(X) Gone Rollerskating / Blading (you might say I've rollerskated a few times)
(X) Had A Wish Come True (many!)
( ) Been Humped By A Monkey?

SO FAR: 53

Level 20
(X) Worn Pearls (fake ones, when I was a kid...I've always been obsessed with jewelry!)
( ) Jumped Off A Bridge
(X) Screamed "Penis" (I've screamed most every naughty word. Yep, I'm a bad girl.)
( ) Swam With Dolphins (not yet...but soon!)

SO FAR: 55

Level 22
(X) Got Your Tongue Stuck To A Pole / Freezer/ice Cube
( ) Kissed A Fish
(X) Worn The Opposite Sex's Clothes
( ) Sat On A Roof Top

SO FAR: 57

Level 23
(X) Screamed At The Top Of Your Lungs
(X) Done / Attempted A One-Handed Cartwheel
( ) Talked On The Phone For More Than 6 Hours (nah...I maxed out at four!)
(X) Stayed Up All Night

SO FAR: 60

Level 24
( ) Picked And Ate An Apple Right Off The Tree
(X) Climbed A Tree
(X) Had / Been In A Tree House
( ) Scared To Watch Scary Movies Alone

SO FAR: 62

Level 25
(X) Believe In Ghosts
(X) Have/Had More Than 30 Pairs of Shoes
(X) Gone Streaking
( ) Jail / Visited (does working in a prison community count?)

SO FAR: 65

Level 26
( ) Played Chicken
( ) Been Pushed Into A Pool With All Your Clothes On
(X) Been Told You're Hot By A Complete Stranger
( ) Broken A Bone
(X) Been Easily Amused

SO FAR: 67

Level 27
( ) Caught A Fish Then Ate It
( ) Made A Porn Video
(X) Caught A Butterfly
(X) Laughed So Hard You Cried
(X) Cried So Hard You Laughed

SO FAR: 70

Level 28
(X) Mooned / Flashed Someone
(X) Had Someone Moon / Flash You
(X) Cheated On A Test
(X) Forgotten Someone's Name
(X) Slept Naked
(X) French Braided Someones Hair
( ) Been Kicked Out Of Your House

SO FAR: 76

Level 29
(X) Rode A Roller Coaster
(X) Went Scuba-Diving / Snorkeling (both!)
( ) Black-Mailed Someone
( ) Been Black Mailed

SO FAR: 78

Level 31
(X) Been Used
(X) Fell Going Up The Stairs
(X) Licked A Cat/Dog
(X) Bitten Someone
(X) Licked Someone

SO FAR: 83

Level 32
( ) been shot at
(X) had sex in the rain/ rainy night
( ) flattened someones tires (no, but I watched a friend do it when we were in elementary school)
( ) rode your car until the gas light came on
(X) got five dollars or less worth of gas

So Far: 85

I've Done 85 Out Of 143 Stupid Things

What does it say that two of my favorite activities--rollerskating and scuba--are on the list of stupid things? *sigh* Personally, I find living with an apartment full of Elven muses far more hazardous!

---

Seen at rhapsody11 and pulsarkat: My life soundtrack.

1. Open your library (iTunes, Winamp, Media Player, iPod, etc)
2. Put it on shuffle
3. Press play
4. For every question, type the song that's playing
5. When you go to a new question, press the next button
6. Don't lie and try to pretend your cool...

This could be embarassing, but here goes!

Opening Credits: Beethoven - Moonlight Sonata

Waking Up: Ivy, "Edge of the Ocean"

First Day At School: Pat Benetar, "Love Is a Battlefield"

Falling In Love:  Heart, "Alone"

Fight Song: P.M. Dawn, "Set Adrift on Memory Bliss"

Breaking Up:  Bon Jovi, "Born to Be My Baby"

Prom: Dave Matthew's Band, "Rhyme and Reason"

Life: Jack Johnson, "Sexy Plexi"

Mental Breakdown: Enigma, "Sadeness (Part 1)"

Driving: Goo Goo Dolls, "Dizzy"

Flashback: Fleetwood Mac, "Little Lies"

Getting Back Together: U2, "Sometimes You Can't Make It on Your Own"

Wedding: Toto, "Africa"

Birth of Child: Goo Goo Dolls, "Long Way Down"

Final Battle: Shakira, "Illegal"

Death Scene: Howard Shore, "The Ride of the Rohirrim"

Funeral Song: Duran Duran, "Come Undone"

End Credits: Madonna, "Take a Bow"

Hardly any of those make sense, and I don't even know one of the songs. Heh. That's what you get when you let your husband make your play list!

Comments

[noliel.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with the first three in the fannish5 one, and I haven't seen much of 4 and 5, but they sound annoying as heck. ('Specially 4. I think that spawned from the movies with Arwen dying because the Ring...what? Existed? It made no sense that she was fading because Sauron's power was getting stronger.)

I've Done 85 Out Of 143 Stupid Things

*scratches head* Some of those aren't stupid! I've done a lot of them, actually, now that I think about it...

(By the way, I love love love love love love Moonlight Sonata! *puts your opening credits on replay*)

[dawn_felagund]

I totally agree with the first three in the fannish5 one, and I haven't seen much of 4 and 5, but they sound annoying as heck.

Funny thing about those last two is that I am faaar from a canatic. If people want to write AU, go right ahead! I've written some pretty crazy AU myself. And I've twisted my share of canon without exactly writing AU.

It's that people believe that those things are canon (and then berate those of us who don't write according to their fanon notions) and write them based on "canon" that doesn't exist. If they came up with these ideas on their own, I'd give them a pat on the back and respect their originality. Or even if they admitted, "I'm a shameless slave to fanon." Heck, I'll admit that I'm a shameless slave to some fanons. I don't pretend that I'm holier-than-thou by claiming it as canon.

(You'll learn that I have a lot of beefs with "canatics," particularly those who quote fanon and expect me to take it as gospel! :^P)

I think that spawned from the movies with Arwen dying because the Ring...what?

Yeah, I had trouble wrapping my brain around that one too! Peter Jackson should mark his movie "AU"!! >:^]]

*scratches head* Some of those aren't stupid!

I know! Some of them are quite nice. Like how is falling in love stupid? Watching clouds?? *sigh*

By the way, I love love love love love love Moonlight Sonata!

Eep. *hides* I accidentally copied that when I copied the meme from pulsarkat and forgot to change it! :^P

It seems that my actual opening song is "Men in Black" by Will Smith. *hides again* I knew this would be embarrassing.... ;^D

[noliel.livejournal.com]

I don't pretend that I'm holier-than-thou by claiming it as canon.

Exactly! I hate "holier than thou" people, (and characters for that matter) who can't leave well enough alone. Live and let live, people! (or...write and let write!)

Peter Jackson should mark his movie "AU"!! >:^]]

Heheh, very true.

I know! Some of them are quite nice. Like how is falling in love stupid? Watching clouds?? *sigh*

Ooh, I remember being in grade three and laying on the grass in the playground making up "cloud stories" for my friends during recess. Really, cloud shapes are amazing sometimes...

Eep. *hides* I accidentally copied that when I copied the meme from pulsarkat and forgot to change it! :^P

Gah! Just my luck. T.T I had a feeling (p'raps 'cause you mentioned somethinglike, there's a song I've not heard here) that something funny would happen. ><

...Would you like to hear it though?! *shameless classical music plugging* ^^

[dawn_felagund]

...Would you like to hear it though?! *shameless classical music plugging* ^^

Sure! :^D

[noliel.livejournal.com]

Sure! :^D

Yay! Linky: http://download.yousendit.com/4E3817AA4C5B7C50

And: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=K4SMAKR8 <-- this one is a .asx file, though, but it sounds much better.

(MegaUpload is a bit weird, you have to enter a 3 letter code right next to the "MEGAUPLOAD ----^" sign and then click download. ^^)

[juno-magic.livejournal.com]

Fandom Clichés: I'd say it all depends on the execution. *g*

And I really liked the soundtrack of your life!

[dawn_felagund]

Fandom Clichés: I'd say it all depends on the execution. *g*

Exactly! You know I'm not the sort to "OMG! Evil Feanor! OMG! Will hate and flame this story!" These stories just tend not to push the right buttons with me. Though I've read some that do a nice job of things.

I guess it comes back to a cliche of a different sort: Don't judge a book by it's cover. ;)

Oh, while we're talking cliches (again, for what, the thousandth time? :^D), I have been working for a while on a writing post about when cliches are good and not-so-good to use (imho), and in our last discussion, you had some really nice points on when cliches are good to use, and I would like to quote you, if you don't mind? I can send you the post if you want to read it first.

And I really liked the soundtrack of your life!

Thanks! As I was doing it, I thought that this wasn't the best iPod playlist to use since Bobby made it for me and put on some songs he'd found that he thought I'd like. So one of the songs I don't even know and some I wouldn't particularly choose for my own playlist. Eep. I'm changing it tomorrow, so maybe I'll do it again.

[juno-magic.livejournal.com]

I guess it comes back to a cliche of a different sort: Don't judge a book by it's cover. ;)

*snerk* Indeed. I'm willing to give almost everything a chance.

Our clichés discussion: feel free to quote me! I'm honoured.

Since then I've done a lot of proofreading for a friend, and for a published author (in exchange for her proofreading Atlantis). And a lot of reading about editing & revising, too (if you don't have it yet, you should get "Getting the Words Right" by Theodore Rees Cheney - you'll love it).

My short-cut to when clichés or figurative language aka "purple prose" have gone wrong has become: "As soon as I notice that something's wrong, it's *wrong*." (The difference: clichés gone wrong usually only make me yawn, because if we've them once, we've seen them a thousand times; wrong metaphors or similes are worse - they make me laugh!)

I think the test of really good writing is if the words are so *right* that they actually allow me to forget that I am reading letters on a piece of paper or on the screen.

[tarion-anarore.livejournal.com]

Screamed "Penis"

Heck, I had that one outta the way before kindergarden!! 0:)

did not stand aside at Losgar

I've been wondering about this off and on recently...Because I totally need more crack bunnies. Not.

whenever we go to Rocky Run Grill and Tap, I decorate the paper on the tables with Stars of Feanor and Tengwar!

Wow, even I haven't come to that point! ;P (Maybe because I don't know tengwar....)

What does it say that two of my favorite activities--rollerskating and scuba--are on the list of stupid things?

There are a bunch of them that make me think "huh? Why is that stupid?"

[dawn_felagund]

I've been wondering about this off and on recently...

Oh, I have my own Felakverse explanation for why Maglor did not stand aside. *not telling* >:^D

Wow, even I haven't come to that point!

Hey, writing names and words and stuff in Tengwar is fun! I have a calligraphy pen in my purse (for drawing D&D maps...a whole new kind of nerdiness!), and I'll use that sometimes too, when restaurants put paper on the tables.

(Maybe because I don't know tengwar....)

It's easy to learn. I can send you tutorials if you're ever interested. ;)

There are a bunch of them that make me think "huh? Why is that stupid?"

Yeah, I don't agree that most of this meme is stupid. And some stupid things are definitely missing.

Dawn's Stupid Things Meme:
-Have you ever put a big-ass ugly spoiler on your car?
-Have you ever gone to a nightclub?
-Have you ever attempted to learn PHP?
-Do you routinely talk on your cell phone in public?
-Do you have a tattoo on your lower back?
-Have you ever played a Ranger character in D&D and forgotten for the whole game to use his special Ranger abilities?

*raises hand for three of them*

>:^D

[tarion-anarore.livejournal.com]

Oh, I have my own Felakverse explanation for why Maglor did not stand aside. *not telling* >:^D

Well, fine. *manages to make "fine" into two syllables* I'm not telling either!! :P

I have a calligraphy pen in my purse (for drawing D&D maps...a whole new kind of nerdiness!), and I'll use that sometimes too, when restaurants put paper on the tables.

Personally, I like when the restaurant provides the crayons. ;)

It's easy to learn. I can send you tutorials if you're ever interested. ;)

Because I need something else to distract me during class...I'll let you know if I change my mind.

Dawn's Stupid Things Meme:

Hey, I've done 0 stupid things then! That is highly not indicative of the true me.

[rhapsody11.livejournal.com]

Omg Dawn, this is getting scary:

Dawn's Stupid Things Meme:
-Have you ever gone to a nightclub?
-Have you ever attempted to learn PHP?
-Do you routinely talk on your cell phone in public?
-Have you ever played a Ranger character in D&D and forgotten for the whole game to use his special Ranger abilities?

*walks away whistling* Especially the ranger one *ahem* But sometimes you just get really really caught up in the game and...

[dawn_felagund]

Especially the ranger one *ahem* But sometimes you just get really really caught up in the game and...

Exactly! Although Meryth had such a bad game because of my stupidity, and I don't think he's quite forgiven me, since that game earned him the epithet "Meryth the Incompetent".... *winces*

[sinneahtes.livejournal.com]

Heehee--your life's soundtrack has the same opening credits as mine did. ;) *is still giggling that "Curse of Feanor" was her "Falling in Love" song*

I was going to steal the "Stupid Things" meme the other day, but was like, "Uh, what if my getting fired wasn't from my stupidity?" and my brain shorted out because my brain likes to do that. (Maybe I'll do the meme when I give my journal a rest from all the memes and surveys I've been flooding it with this past week. ;))

Swam With Dolphins (not yet...but soon!)

I could die happily right after doing that... assuming the dolphins are in the wild, of course. ^_^ (I think dolphin "swim with" parks are pretty shady. :\)

And I agree with all your points on the fannish5 thing (though if I stole that meme, I'd probably have to expand it to "fannish50," because I overdo things like that ;)). With Feanor, I wonder if The Silmarillion's narrator might have (consciously or subconsiously) influenced feelings in "history" about him because a) he personally disapproved of Finwe's second marriage and was dropping hints of "Look what happens when you don't accept things the way they are and seek a second wife!" and/or b) he was shocked and/or embarrassed by the Noldors' actions and reacted by trying to make certain powerful people look worse than they really were? (Bleh, I really ought to reread my copy... it's been too long!)

"Fading"--you said it better than I could! I think I remember a line here or there saying Elves could "waste away from grief" (but I can't produce the proof) and there's that line in the Prophecy of the North that says "slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief," but that could mean a lot of things besides "If you're sad enough for too long, you'll just start dying." (Perhaps a seriously depressed Elf who doesn't get help might stop eating and slowly die of starvation/dehydration or some sort of organ failure, though... I think the illustration of that would be more dramatic and interesting to me than "Hot Elf 2, quick! Hot Elf 1 is fading! Screw him good so he'll be tempted away from Mandos and come back to us!" ;))

[rhapsody11.livejournal.com]

"Fading"--you said it better than I could! I think I remember a line here or there saying Elves could "waste away from grief"

It's in LACE or somewhere else in Morgoth's ring. I read it recently, so it is canon. A while ago I tried to explain to someone that lingering does not equal fading. I gave up after a while because the person had a fanon idea and did not want to let go of that.

The point Dawn is trying to make is that there are more forms than fading.

[dawn_felagund]

My understanding of "fading" is that it isn't death at all; it is when the Elven spirit overwhelms the body to where the Elf is invisible to the eyes of we mere mortals.

"Death of grief"...a whole different can of worms!

I'm actually in the midst of working on an essay, trying to resolve this, because I've posed the question of fading vs. death of grief before and only gotten a tug-o-war between the "yes they're the same!" people and the "no they're not!" people with no real answers. So I'm going to avoid commenting on this issue further until I finish my research.

[dawn_felagund]

Heehee--your life's soundtrack has the same opening credits as mine did. ;)

Yeah, that was a boo-boo caused by forgetting to change your answer with my own!

I could die happily right after doing that... assuming the dolphins are in the wild, of course. ^_^ (I think dolphin "swim with" parks are pretty shady. :\)

I agree because I don't think that it's in the nature of any wild animal just to allow all and sundry people mess with it.

I expect that mine will occur either scuba-diving or at the aquarium. When I eventually start diving there, one of the duties of their divers is to clean the dolphin pool, so I'll swim with them then for sure!

With Feanor, I wonder if The Silmarillion's narrator might have (consciously or subconsiously) influenced feelings in "history" about him because a) he personally disapproved of Finwe's second marriage and was dropping hints of "Look what happens when you don't accept things the way they are and seek a second wife!" and/or b) he was shocked and/or embarrassed by the Noldors' actions and reacted by trying to make certain powerful people look worse than they really were?

Oh, I totally agree, and I bring this up all the time when arguing *ahem* discussing with canatics why a literal interpretation of the book isn't always the best way to go. If you consider the loremasters who wrote the Sil--Rumil and Pengolodh--they both have reasons to portray the Feanorians negatively, especially Pengolodh. I've no doubt that the same story written by a Feanorian loremaster would read completely differenly.

Which may or may not be part of my reason in writing the AMC series of stories. :^P

"Fading"--you said it better than I could! I think I remember a line here or there saying Elves could "waste away from grief"

Yes, it's always been my understanding that "fading" and "death of grief" are two completely different things. Elves can be either slain with weapons or die from grief; that's in the Sil and also an idea that Tolkien seems to have from the very beginning of creating his mythology. I've only read through HoMe 2 for specific information on fading, but it seems that it underwent a slight evolution over time, concluding with the idea that fading is when the Elven spirit became too strong for the body and the Elf ceased to be visible to mortal eyes. However, the Elf was still alive and present in the world. I've yet to find a definitive link in the texts that show "death of grief" and "fading" to be the same thing, though I have a lot of research left to go.

(Can you tell that I'm working on an essay about this subject? :^D)

[isil-elensar.livejournal.com]

#4 Fading. Not the canon idea of fading--that Elven spirits overwhelm their bodies as they age until they become invisible to mortal eyes--but the popular fanon-based plot of So-and-so "fading" from grief and having to be "saved" by the love of someone else. I've never found canon evidence to support this idea of "fading," and the prevalence of accepting this fanon is irksome to me.

Ooopsie!! ;-) I got a story written (though still under wraps) that touches on this exact scenario. It's a wee bit different (imho) though, and there's a twist to it... and really, the character 'fading' is mostly human, though she's got elven blood in her. ;-) And she is slowing dying of grief... though the details are also currently under wraps. Eventually it will all come out.

Hopefully.

I've heard it possible that people can die of grief, no longer caring what happens to them after the one they love sooo much dies. Unable to live without them. It's rare, but I've heard of it happening.

[dawn_felagund]

Ooopsie!! ;-) I got a story written (though still under wraps) that touches on this exact scenario.

Well, Elves can die of grief, certainly! I have no problem with that and admit to being tempted into stories about how to save an Elf from such a fate. I just get irked when it's specifically called "fading" because I've yet to see proof that Death of Grief = Fading.

But I'm working on an essay on this, surveying every last word published by Tolkien for each and every mention of "fade/fading" and "[death of] grief." *falls over* So I'll have a more definitive answer on this soon enough. ;) I'm going to avoid giving my relatively uneducated opinion on fading until then! :^D

[rhapsody11.livejournal.com]

Fannish five: a full aye on 1,2 and 3.

As for four, I recently read (yeah I know, but I think it was Morgoth's ring) that fading can be that. Hence the fading. There is a difference between lingering on middle earth and slowly accepting your part to play becomes less (this doesn't necessarily mean fading), but an elf can fade by grief. They forsake their bodily needs.. or something like that. (I am just awake) But I know it is one of the options with fading.

5. Yet again, depending on what you actually did before you end up there, Mandos, according to Lace (I know this 100% certainty) can be a place where you receive punishment. So it can be a hell.

What does it say that two of my favorite activities--rollerskating and scuba--are on the list of stupid things? *sigh* Personally, I find living with an apartment full of Elven muses far more hazardous!

LOL! Yes. I just don't think those things are stupid at all!! And the elves just move in. That's how Celegorm ended up here at least.

Wuv your playlist :)

[dawn_felagund]

As for four, I recently read (yeah I know, but I think it was Morgoth's ring) that fading can be that.

I'm surveying every published word of Tolkien's work for mention of "fade/fading" and "[death of] grief," so I hope to have some points proven to myself. I've always taken fading and death of grief to be two completely different things. Fading isn't even death, as I understand it. But I will give people the benefit of the doubt and assume that I'm merely missing something in all of this...until I finish the survey and essay, of course. ;)

Yet again, depending on what you actually did before you end up there, Mandos, according to Lace (I know this 100% certainty) can be a place where you receive punishment. So it can be a hell.

My interpretation, though, has always been that it is a self-imposed hell. It is not as though Namo is roasting Elves in ovens, for example. ;) But it doesn't seem a comfortable affair to be without a body and left reflecting on all of one's deeds. I will need to reread LaCE for more on this, and I'm too lazy at the moment. ;) (Though I'll be there in my fading research soon enough!)

Wuv your playlist :)

Thanks! :^D

[ssotknapsack.livejournal.com]

What does it say that two of my favorite activities--rollerskating and scuba--are on the list of stupid things? *sigh* Personally, I find living with an apartment full of Elven muses far more hazardous!

Even better, I've refused to do this meme since I first saw it, on the grounds that kissing a member of the same-sex is "stupid." *Rolls eyes*

[dawn_felagund]

A good 90% of the list are things that I don't consider stupid at all. Actually, most of them, I consider "living!"

[atanwende.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with you on the fanfic cliches. I mean, Mandos as 'Elven hell'? Where do these people get their ideas from? I mean, in the early stages of HoMe, the concept seems to have been of a somewhat darker, unpleasant place, but hell? Eh no, folks.

And as for the fading bit: I might agree with writers having their characters intentionally giving up life, like, let's say Luthien (I know she's quite an exception, but still... ). But then, I would also think, that 'giving up life' as a conscious decision of a character that has come so far as to consider this, will not be so quickly dismissed with having their 'One true luv!!!11!!' (TM) suddenly appear. I mean, that's not a plot. If anything, it's a bad excuse for some angst.

[dawn_felagund]

I don't deny that Elves can die of grief, I just don't think that that was what Tolkien meant when he talked about fading.

So far as I can tell, fading is when the Elven spirit overwhelms the body, and we mortals can no longer see the Elves. I've never seen it used in conjunction with a death of grief except in the Tale of Beren and Luthien. (Though I am not finished my exhaustive search since most of my books got deleted.) Anyhoo, I'm actually working on an essay on this very subject, so hopefully, I'll have better answers soon!

[atanwende.livejournal.com]

I don't deny that Elves can die of grief, I just don't think that that was what Tolkien meant when he talked about fading.

Neither do I. I think I simply got caught up a little in my own arguments. ;) What I meant to imply was actually the fact that even if the fanon concept of 'fading' was what Tolkien intended it to be I simply think it is often enough not handled with the gravity befitting the subject matter. It feels more like the 'petty problems, quickly solved'-plot that's so popular in soap operas. Well, at least to me. ;)